Episode 24 - When Your Spouse is a Therapist, with Firefighter Erik Hernandez and Therapist Maggie Hernandez
Firefighter Erik Hernandez and his wife, associate marriage and family therapist Maggie Hernandez, talk on a wide range of topics, inclduing the benefits of therapy, finding culturally-competant therapists, peer support, PTSD, complex trauma, bio hacks, eye movement desensitization and reprocessing (EMDR) therapy, and how they reconcile different approaches to parenting.
Transcript
Peter
Welcome to the Firehouse Roundtable podcast, brought to you by the Ventura Fire Foundation. My name is Peter McKenzie. I'm one of the hosts. I'm retired fire captain with the city of Ventura Fire Department.
Jason
And I'm Jason Kay. I'm an active fire captain also with the Ventura Fire Department.
Peter
And we are excited that you are going to spend some time with us at the kitchen table learning about Firehouse issues that we're trying to bring awareness to.
Jason
Thanks for joining us as we discuss the issues of being a firefighter both on and off duty and how it affects us.
Peter
Let's get right.
Speaker
Right.
Peter
All right, we'd like to welcome Eric and Maggie Hernandez to the show. So Eric is a firefighter. Maggie is a therapist. And guys, let's introduce yourselves to our listeners. So why don't you each take a a quick second and kind. Of give us a. Quick bio and then we can get into the show.
Maggie
Hey, I'm Maggie. I'm a registered associate, marriage and family there. Yes, I'm actually based in two practices. I'm all Ventura County, so I have an office in Camarillo and an office in Ventura. Where I work exclusively with Toronto survivors. So my, my, my clinical expertise kind of includes counseling, first responders, military combat veterans. Survivors of complex trauma addiction had several clients who were survivors of mesh casualty events like borderline and Route 91. I also work with just underserved communities. In general. The LGBTQ community, things like that, are our populations that I'm really close to work.
Peter
Awesome. Yeah, there's a lot there that we definitely want to get into. Eric, how about how about you?
Erik
Yes, Sir. Names, Eric Hernandez, firefighter paramedic with the city of Pasadena, finally working up in northwest primarily. Love it there. Been on about 9, about nine years. Or so and then. Was volunteer firefighter for about four years prior to that. I live here in beautiful Ventura. Nothing against Pasadena, but the weather is so much nicer out here. So it's nice to call home here. Yeah, made a beautiful wife. Maggie. We got a couple of kids, some dogs, some chickens, old cars, all the above.
Peter
Awesome, awesome. Glad to have some local venturians on the podcast. Well, let's get into it. So you guys clearly have a perspective on life that is great interest to us and our listeners. So not only obviously Eric is the firefighter, but Maggie, you work in a professional capacity with first responders and sounds. Some other trauma survivors as well. So I think that's going to be the gist of our conversation. Today, great. Curious. What that like, I don't know that we've ever had a couple on the show where the husband was a firefighter and the wife was a therapist, so that that might produce some interesting conversations. You guys also started. And the other thing, let's get. Let's get out there because I think it's material to the conversation is. You guys also started a nonprofit, so why don't you take a second to kind of tell us what that is? And I know a lot of our. Nurse. In fact, one of our own guys, I think, fought in one of your nonprofit events.
Maggie
You did.
Peter
So why don't we? Talk about that real quick.
Maggie
Yeah, Russ Skinner fought and won. He put on quite a show, actually, last year. It was fantastic. Yeah. So we got started in 2019. It was just kind of. A A thought of. Let's there was another couple that we were collaborating with at the time and the thought was let's do something to benefit first responders who are facing mental health challenges because. Be real y'all see things in just the average day that nobody ever sees, and that nobody should ever see like the experiences that first responders have are. Really, really unique. So they I I kind of joined around the end of like just before when the fight was happening, but they put that event event together in, I want to say six weeks, right? Maybe like an insanely short period of time they managed to pull off a phenomenal event. I want to say there were 500 plus attendees. Raised like over $32,000 and it all went to next rung to actually help benefit just first responders who were in need of therapy services and support. We had to kind of hit the pause button for a couple of. Years just because. Of COVID, but last year. The event limit Skinner fraud in for us was phenomenal. I don't even know ballpark. Probably about 700 people were there start to finish. We raised over $40,000. So again all money that went to benefiting firefighters, paramedics, law enforcement officers, veterans who. Desperately need therapy services.
Peter
Awesome. Awesome. How. How did it? How did it start? Like what was the the Nexus for getting it going?
Speaker
So yeah.
Erik
Well, I think it was one of those where, you know the fire, so we think. To ourselves, what's? Something that would draw. Large mass of. The people and I think it was important for us to to get people together from different departments, different walks of life, different experiences, whether you're a 30 year guy or. A three day guy and really just get. Them all in the. Same area so. We were round table and thinking about different ways and it's kind of where eight or 954. Kind of fruition 809 is our Union number. Fight for awareness. There was four of us. It all kind of just played into itself, but really it was. What's an event that's going to get a ton of people together and more importantly, get those people talking and get them interacting with one another. So getting different departments again with different experiences and different levels, suddenly people were able to make the connection that even though we're different, we have a lot of things in common, right? The same hardships that the wives at at Cal, far feeling on the same ones that we're feeling. So.
Peter
We're 100.
Erik
Miles away from each other, different apartments, different experiences. But we're all kind of going to the same things. And really, that was the Nexus for it is. How come get X amount of people together and more importantly, how can we get them interacting and conversing with one another so you throw in the competitiveness of the boxing event with different departments fighting each other all in the same area, and suddenly the conversations were being had and friendships were. Being made.
Maggie
Yeah. And I think we knew. It had to be something physical because that, you know, it's that community tends to gravitate toward that. And you could have. You know, a symposium where you're going to have speakers come and talk and stuff, and that's great. I mean, there's value to those. But you're probably not going to get a whole lot of law enforcement officers if you want to go spend the day off listening to, you know, someone go up there and talk. But they will go to. A boxing match. Because it's a hell of a lot more fun. Yeah. And I think like just really the impetus. For it was seeing. Just there's an increased awareness just from First responder mental health. Needs in general, but. I think the. Consciousness was really starting to shift around 2019 toward that because I think that rudiment paper, I don't know who's familiar with it. We cite it in our. On our on our website, but it's something that I work with a lot. Too, just the. Stats around first responder suicides and how in 2017. Is where like it started to shift where a line of duty deaths started to be exceeded by suicides, and they are still exceeded by suicides like that that you know, the the gap between the two has not really shifted. So yeah, it was just more of a hey, we see a problem. I feel like first responders, you know Eric always jokes that. He's a professional problem solver. It's yeah. You see a problem? It's like, alright, well, what can we do? What can we do?
Jason
To to help fix it. Yeah. Cool. So I want to give a little bit of nuance. To the conversation. To you, first of all, at Station 3, you guys know where that is being in town, right? By Buena, right over the door. We go out of to go on calls. Is Skinner in a full? Rocky Balboa posed with his arm up successfully after fighting in. Your event which. Is just awesome. I would have gone. I was on duty. Some guys have to work, unfortunately. But everybody, we had live streaming going on at all the. Stations the sponsors were super fun. It was awesome. Just so you guys know, it was super far reaching and then the other thing I wanted to bring up is that Eric and I have some common folks that we know and we hang out with. I was actually hired by Chief Downs, who was the chief of Pasadena for a while. And then my son worked for one of the Verdugo departments.
Speaker
That's awesome. OK. Very cool.
Jason
At at Glendale, as an AO. So the same dispatchers as Pasadena.
Erik
Yeah. And interestingly enough, I got to run a a call with your son right before he got hired on. I may have ran one of his last calls as a as a AO.
Jason
Such as.
Maggie
It's such a small. World, Man, it's such a small community. I love it.
Jason
Yeah. So I want to. Get into a little bit into some. Of the specifics. Maggie, on your bio that you sent us, you kind of cited. In all caps, I changed careers because I needed to make a difference in the lives of. Others, so that was. A little bit of. A late a late career shift for you and after you had a successful career doing something else, what it was it in your perspective that that you were saying? I'm not fulfilled by what I'm doing and I need to do something else.
Maggie
OK, this I love this question. I was in business development and marketing for close to 18 years. And you know, I was good at it. I did it for a long time. And it, you know, made a really nice paycheck to bring home to my family. But I never felt like I was doing something of, like, measurable work outside of, you know, what I was seeing in my bank account? And I think when I met Eric, you've been married. For seven years together for. I when I met him and was hearing him. Talk about what he does every day for. A living and. Just hearing him say, you know, sometimes it's criminal that I get to take a paycheck for what I do because I love it so much and I'm so passionate about this and he would. Come home and. Tell me about calls that he had been on and I would hear about the the hard ones. You know, so I I value being able to hear that. Yeah. But I would hear about the good ones too, about, you know, we showed up on scene and this kid was struggling and we were able to help them. And basically they're alive today because of, you know, the things that he did. And it really put everything I was doing into very sharp relief. And so it was. Always kind of a. Thought that I would go back to school.
Peter
Yeah, let's talk about your support network. Is that just for first responders or is that? For all of your clients.
Maggie
My support group is going to be for First responder partners and and then I yeah, and then I work with both partners and the first responders in my practice.
Peter
OK. And these are are these mainly people that you're already working with, or are you finding? Are you putting it out to like everyone or what? Does that look like?
Maggie
I'm putting it out to everyone. I've just kind of started, you know, employing some of my. Marketing skills and using them. With using those clients so. Just putting it out there and saying, hey, I I do work with first responders and taking new clients.
Peter
OK. Awesome. We might need to talk offline because that's one of the things that we're we're we're not struggling with, but brainstorming around on like how to increase awareness and build community around this topic, because I think there's so many fragmentations because there's departments that are different, there's there's states that are different. There's all, there's different. Even within fire departments, there's you work for the county or the feds. So this there's all this fragmentation involved, but sometimes it's hard to cross those lines and get everybody on the. Same page so.
Erik
Yeah, we strongly believe the same way you. Guys doing that. It's it's cool that the firefighters get the hey, good job. Hey, here's, you know, have a cup of coffee on us. And whatnot. But the ones that are neglected. Are the ones at home the wives, the kids? You know. As much as it is that I'm bummed to miss a. You know, a Christmas presentation or some sort of school activity like my kids are just as bummed too. But I think we. I think they so often sit in the shadows and don't get the recognition that they deserve, that we selfish. Actually do and I think that's what's important to Maggie and it to to represent not just the first responders, but the core support system behind the first responder that they're just as important and. Just as valued. We really want. Them to understand that so that that. Was the main focus, but that's one. Of the main. Focuses of our nonprofit is not just the first responder, but. The community of the first responder. And getting them engaged and getting them just as much help and attention as the first responder themselves. So it's awesome to hear you guys, you know, have the same.
Peter
Yeah, you're speaking our language and and we we got big plans and we're working on stuff and then I'm really excited about the direction we're going, but it it's in line with that, it's which is take care of the people back at home. So yeah, a few years ago we all started the peer support teams on the fire department. That was kind of a big push. You guys have one in Pasadena, I'm assuming too and.
Jason
That was when we started seeing guys really wanna be able to have after the CSM push where nobody would do anything but peer support. Everybody actually wanted to communicate and talk, or at least hang out for a few hours and take a break from running calls and talk about what's going on. And couple of years later, we. Realized the spouses just had nobody to go to. And there wasn't much in the. Way of therapists who could relate. To that side of things. So Eric, I want to talk about your story a little bit and how you came from where we all come from, which is usually like the 25 to 30 year old. Super full of testosterone and pizza vinegar and ready to fight fires and can handle the world to getting to a place where you realize that mental health is a real issue in the fire department and what led you kind of down that path to start the nonprofit with your wife that you. Guys do now.
Erik
Yeah, all these questions. So I haven't, I haven't. Spent too long in the fire service compared to a lot of people right on 9 1/2. Years and even. That feel silly throwing in that half part but it. I feel. Like it makes. A difference, but it really it hasn't been too long. Where in our department, you know, you you run a. Critical call in the captain would either just kind of glanced back in the back of the. The engine they're like, hey, everyone's good, right? It wasn't it wasn't. It was almost. Implied like hey. This is what we signed up for, and no one's gonna say anything. Everyone knows it was a. Tough call, but we're not going to talk about it, right?
Maggie
The suck it up generation.
Erik
Yeah, it was kind of the whole mindset of, hey, this. Is what you signed up for? And yes, to an extent, it is what we signed up for. But we also signed up to be. Human and there's still that element of it, right. And I think for so long we kind of neglected that. And that unfortunately is leading to the statistics that we have today. You know everything that happened five years ago is is coming. It's all stunning. Compelled. So I think for us, I'm very fortunate to to work with Pasadena. I feel like the the leadership and the Chiefs that we have right now are amazing and I genuinely mean that like they're very they're very personal. They're very they take a humanistic approach to things that yes, we are first responders. Yes, we are professionals, but we're still husbands, sons, fathers, all the above. And I don't think they've lost sight of that. So I'm. Very grateful for that. Again, the recognition lady. So with that came the mindset that we have at Pasadena, where peer support is paramount. Being able to host events like the boxing event, the next event that we have coming up that made you have coming up is best way to guys like get elevated date night for first responders and significant others. We partnered up with the culinary school in Pasadena. We're going to be hosting a date night with the first responder. And other significant other can get together. We're going to learn to make dinner. We gonna learn to make plates from scratch and really just have this bonding environment. Right. But the Chiefs are going to be attending that as well. That that's the type of environment that we harbor. At Pasadena, so that. Made it really easy transition where I've always felt like mental health was important. I myself have seen multiple. Just went through a pretty rough divorce and that was kind of my introduction into therapy and the benefits of it had the unfortunate circumstance of getting kind of flash over maybe about five years ago or so. So I had some trauma associated with that. I want to go. See a therapist with it. So I've. First hand seeing the benefits of therapy and various types of therapy. So if I can be that if I can be that conduit to. Others to say. Hey, it really does work like you've got to be vulnerable and you've got to be willing to put yourself out there and not necessarily you have to be willing to discuss it. With others. But I feel like I am because if I could, if there's still that, that stigma attached to therapy, if I could be the one person that's like, believe it or not, I tried. It actually worked. Then maybe that can. Be what causes the next person. And so on and so forth and then. You know, you kind of see the ripple.
Maggie
Effect. Go on. I think the really important thing for Eric was having someone who got the lifestyle and got like that cultural competency piece. Was really really. Vital because I think you know. Yes, he did see a therapist when he was going through divorce. And he said, you know, that the therapist. Come in and say, well, when you go home on Wednesday night, like, do this on Wednesday night like, have a date night he was. Yeah, I don't go home until Friday unless I get mandated and then I go home on Saturday, maybe Sunday. Who knows? So yeah, like having someone who really understood that piece. I think his therapist that he sees.
Jason
Yeah, that cultural competency piece is so huge for therapy. We've had therapists on here before where they speak even to how it's important to be culturally competent so that they can say.
Maggie
Totally, yeah.
Jason
If star or they could say, you know, flash over and they'll actually, it's important that they know what we're talking about and that they have. They know that routine is impossible in our job. So when they say every night, go to bed at this time. So you get a good night's sleep. You you kind of laugh. At him and go. OK, I'm never going back to that guy, right?
Maggie
Ohh no sleep hygiene is right out the window I.
Jason
Yeah. Yeah. So we have, we have a ton of of podcasts and we've talked to a lot of professionals on sleep as well. Those are probably our two big pushes are the therapy and sleep. I'm kind of the same way, Eric, where I expect.
Maggie
Don't even get into it with my.
Jason
Two, after a big call to need peer support and to need some kind of therapy for my team and if I can be on top and be the one who's recommending it to the guys in the back seat or whatever, then I think that's huge that they see that you've been through it too. It's not a shameful thing. It's something that just brings you back to normalcy like you talked about it. Being just a human being, we're underneath it all. We're all just human beings, right? I want to talk a little bit about your E MDR that you did for your therapy and and first of all, tell me. How many times and what you did for therapy before that not you. Don't have to be specific and then go into what EMDR is, how that helped you. And then also all the way down to Maggie being a traditional therapist. What do you think of the MDR after you're done? So go ahead, Eric, start that out.
Erik
Yes. I'm gonna ask me for a little help on exactly what. MDR stands for.
Maggie
Eye movement desensitization and reprocessing.
Erik
Was right on the tip of. My tongue so. I actually learned about it through somebody at work. Two people at work, actually. So I kept having these. I kept having these flashbacks to the Flash. It would just happen at random times, like it's not times where I felt like I was stressed. It's I would literally be driving down the freeway and I would just get these these flashes of. I remember distinctly I'm on the third floor and I'm looking at this hallways, hallways kind of getting ready to light off and I see my host starts to go and the the outer lining of the jacket is starting to burn through. Looking over the balcony and think to myself, I got one or. Two options, either jump off third floor. I remember thinking I heard. I'm probably gonna break my back or running towards the hallway that's about to flash on me. And then my captain at the time yelling something and seeing my firefighter jump over the over the railing to get out of the way and then just come in and run in there, running towards the door and then never making it to the door and just feeling I thought the ceiling collapsed. I mean, I remember looking down the floor, lighting off. I remember my hose lighting off the floor underneath me, lighting off, and then I. Thought the ceiling fell and I thought I was. So it was one of those where it was just these most random times. I'd be asleep and I'd I'd sense it. I'd be driving. I'd be with my kids at the park having a blast and I'd get these flashbacks. So I was talking to somebody there at our peer support and they were vulnerable about it and they were the ones who introduced me to and they were like, hey, have you heard of? Have you tried at the time? I didn't. And quite frankly, I was reluctant to. Right. I I was what I just discussed 5 minutes ago where we're very hesitant. We're we're not quite open to change. So didn't really think too much of it. And then as Matt was going to school. She mentioned it. And I was like, hey, I've heard of this before. I actually know somebody who did it and got her take on it. And Maggie swore by. It still didn't take them up. On it and then I was talking to another guy. On our peer support and he said he. So I'm like, alright listen. Either everyone's wrong or I'm. Wrong, at least owe it to myself to try it.
Jason
Good for you.
Erik
So met with a culturally competent therapist and. I want to say there was two. There was two sessions that truly led up to. The event before we did the MDR and really it was replaying the event. So that's the hard part. The hard part is having to relive this thing right? And the hard part was. All right, we're going to find the point that that really triggers you and then we're going to think about that point. We're going to dwell on it, but we're going to replace it with something that brings joy to you. So we're not going to. We're not going to forget about the event, but we're going to reprogram it so that it's not as as much of A. Traumatic event, but we're not going to lose sight of it. So we got to all that and then came the actual EMDR session itself. So you can do it in person. I like to do it through zoom. And it's just this for me. It was like this ball that tracks across the screen. And you're watching it. You're watching it, and then it slows down and speeds up. And it varies. And then it's kind of cool. I'm watching this thing and then suddenly it almost looks like a like a strobe lights going on. Right. And and suddenly you're in this mindset, and it's like, almost like I was. There again, and I could feel my. My skin's getting flushed. I could that was hard part. The hard part was like. Reliving this thing and suddenly I remember thinking I was so. Bummed that I hadn't made. A choice like I put. Myself in this position. And then as I'm reliving it all of a sudden, I start my my heart rate slows down and start skip. And so consciously I'm doing this. I'm not really catching it. And all of a sudden. It's it's this. But wait, I did do something. And it's like I did, control my breathing. And I did do this and everything that I had second guessed. Suddenly I'm reliving it. Only I'm reliving it in slower pace and it's I wasn't helpless. I did do something. I maybe I didn't do enough but it was a true learning lesson. And then really starting to think about the positive. Sides of it like. I'm still here in this office and I still have, you know, the memories of my kids, and I'm looking forward to picking them up and we're going to hang out. And I probably did that for, I think it was 2 sessions, so it was 4 sessions so it was 2. Leading up to it. Two themselves and after the first one I didn't want to do the second one like the first one was pretty deep, ended it in about 30 minutes or so instead of going the full hour, and then the second one went about. 45 minutes and then. That was. And like I can I can talk about it now and I share that experience with people, and I don't even think about it anymore unless I'm discussing it and things like this, but it's not going to come back and haunt me anymore. So it's cool that I can what used to just pop up at these most random and opportune times are now things that I can reflect on and I can share with others and still can't tell you what it is. The MDR stands for. But I can tell you that it is. Very effective and it works I believe.
Jason
So just to bring it full circle. Did you get injured on that? Or and I'm assuming. You're back to work, right? What's going?
Erik
On with that. Yeah. So, Brenda, that you're pretty good burned up the back pretty good and. Then it's pretty nice. It got so hot that the the rivets on the jacket themselves hatched right into my my wrist. So those like they look like cigarette burns and. Like I have. No idea what these things are and then took a look and I was like they got so hot in that split second they singed right in. Yeah. Then a couple weird looks on my ear. It's normal.
Jason
OK, good. I'm glad to hear that. And Maggie, obviously you supported that E MDR in those sessions, it sounds like you were a part of that recovery. What what kind of schooling do you get in your your therapy education and and you know what what?
Maggie
100%.
Jason
Do you know about?
Maggie
That side of it too, so sadly. We don't get a ton of training on EMDR. In like actual like in the masters programs for. For this it's something that we have to pursue outside of that. I actually learned about EMDR because one of my professors in, I think my first year of grad school, was going through her EMDR certified training and certification. And she was just kind of explaining it to us and saying, you know, it's literal magic. Guys like, this is what happens. And this is how it. Works, so that really kind of inspired me to start doing more of the research around it and learning more about, OK, how does it work? What? What is? This bilateral stimulation, why is it so effective? Like what's what's actually happening there? And just kind of getting to learn all the bits and pieces about that, but I 100% I was a cheerleader for him. Like, just saying, please. Oh, God, please do. Please do therapy for this. Please do E MDR for this. I really think it's going to be effective. And I think we talked about a few different therapy approaches. But E MDR just felt like the most natural. For him to do for this, because I could see. The effect it was having on him.
Jason
And so many times the firefighters are going to therapy, not even for them for themselves. I mean, obviously it is for yourself, but the wife or, you know, even the kids deserve you to be fully present when you're home. And as I get older and I've been in the fire service a while, I think to myself, so much stuff I do at work is so I'm able to have a good work life balance. And it's back at home. You're OK for your wife and your kids because that work, you're still there and you're in it and it's, you know, it's almost it's almost subconscious. What you're gonna do and. And your daily life is so routine and not really routine per se, but scheduled is what I mean. Everything is by the book. What we're gonna wear. Yeah. Structured. Thank you. What you're gonna wear and what you're gonna do and those tones go off and you're always going to be, you know, you're gonna follow orders and you're going to follow the the EMD and and what you do.
Speaker
Yeah, there's obstruction.
Jason
For medical calls so. Yeah. It's good to hear that. So on a lighter note, Peter talked about, we have a lot of we don't, we haven't had couples who are who are on here before who are a therapist and firefighters, but it does seem like a lot of therapists, Mary. Projects, firefighters, cops, military. So I I think you're saying, Maggie, you didn't get into this until after you guys were together. Is that right? OK. Do you find yourself having professional type conversations a lot to where he's your cause? I think it would be tough to have my spouse be a therapist.
Speaker
Oh, good question.
Maggie
That is a great question.
Jason
Yeah. Do you guys? Do you ever. Ever. Do you ever look at her and? Go. OK, turn it off. I. Just want to talk. To you normally right now, how does that look?
Erik
Yeah, we just got an argument yesterday. Got.
Speaker
Talked about it yesterday, yeah.
Erik
In regards to the kids and how it is we handle the situation.
Speaker
To the.
Erik
Yeah. So and how did that make you feel?
Speaker
OK. And we're. Right.
Peter
Good. Yeah, well.
Speaker
Yeah, but he was he. Yeah, we, we. Was kind of being.
Erik
Show the dynamic.
Maggie
Yeah, he was kind of kind. Of being a jerk about it, but. We we parent in different ways.
Speaker
Well and this.
Maggie
Is something I mean and 1st responder. Spouses can speak. To this too, like we parent in very different ways. Because we're with the kids so much, you know, and we're with the kids more than our partners are. So we're going to have a different lens when it comes to parenting our. This particular one was like our son had a nightmare, and Eric's Eric goes into work brain of. OK, well, let me solve the problem. You know, it was probably because of you were playing Roblox. So F it there's no more Roblox, you know, he. Obviously didn't say. It to the kid, but you know, forget it. Roblox is getting uninstalled from your from your iPad that you were playing. The other day. Whereas I come at it with. OK, well, let's talk about what the nightmare was about. Let's, you know, can you draw me a picture of the nightmare? Let's describe this to me. Like, tell me what happens in your body when we're looking at this picture. So 100%. I'm. I'm therapist thing. You know my kids. But to me. Like that and for them, I think too it feels really effective to do that. Like we're exploring the emotions and I'm letting them know, like it's OK to have these conversations about our feelings. And stuff and. Having to remind Eric, like Bro, shut off that work brain. You're home right now. And that's something that I think all first responders kind of come up against is they're in work brain all the time like and it's two different stages of like, it's hypo arousal down here and then hyper arousal like at work, hyper arousal, you are always on high alert. You're always doing stuff like you have to. You're that professional problem solver. So you're up. Here all the time. Then there's like this normal range. But you're never in that as a first responder. You're then when you, when you're home, you're in that hypo arousal. You want to be left alone. You don't want to make decisions. You know, you're just kind of, like, apathetic, basically. You're just like, just leave me alone. I want to freaking sleep. I want to just don't make me make decisions right now. I don't give a damn what we have. For dinner, you figure it out, please.
Jason
There's so much.
Maggie
You know, it's so that.
Jason
Minda owes coming off, coming off you guys.
Maggie
Yeah, yeah.
Jason
Know her? Yeah, we did some seminars with her for the wives, too. And I mean, talk about eye opening, but this is firefighter therapist and it could just be anybody, right? It's also just mom and Dad and the two ways that you parent and it's just different differently ways to raise your kids go.
Peter
Ahead, Pete, I want to chime back in and, Jason, that you stole my line. Of thought for sure.
Speaker
But but I but I.
Peter
Want to add a little bit to it? So do and. This is for Maggie. Maggie, do you find that you recognize things in Eric that? Maybe a regular a non therapist, firefighter wife wouldn't recognize like because of your professional training. And if you see or hear Eric or what, I'm sure you can read them every which way from Sunday. But like, do you find yourself like identifying those things and then because we're talking about work brain from from Eric because I would assume that you probably are. Easily triggered into work brain. If you see something that you know you can address from Eric so that that kind of goes both ways, what does that look like? Is that happened or is that not a thing?
Maggie
Oh, no, it happens. Yeah, it happened, I think for sure. Just doing what I do and and hearing the stories I hear every day. Yeah, my Spidey senses are up when I'm when I'm at home, even just especially because, like, I mean, he's. Yes, all of my first responders matter, but not all of them are my husband like my husband is obviously going to be like the number one. So he says something. If he mentions a call. You know, that was really difficult. There was one. Not too long ago, where you. You know, we were just talking about it. And he's crying. I'm crying. And I was. Just like I just need. To know that. You're good. Like, let's talk about this so that I know. That you're good. So yeah, I definitely hear things differently and he'll mention something and I'll be like, alright, note to self keep an eye out like watch out for any kind of like intrusive thoughts that are coming up like. Any of the symptoms in PTSD? You know anything that's going to come up around that? Yeah.
Peter
And I would imagine that's probably a little bit irritating to Eric sometimes would be. My guess is that accurate Eric or?
Erik
Yeah, but it, I mean it's healthy though, right? I mean, we do straddle that. Fine line and there's. Times we're all flat out. You know, mention like, listen, I don't want to talk to a therapist right now. I want to talk. To my wife. Yeah, and. I think the same way that I that we so often ship back in. Shift back into work. I think she has the same thing too, right? Like at the end of day, we're both professionals. We're also humans. We're also still husband and wife. So it's just reminding each other in the same way. That she reminds me of like. Hey, you're not at work. Slow down. In the same way that I'm able to call her and I think as long as we have that mutual respect for another, then it's it's beneficial and it's. It works for us.
Peter
Yeah. I I will. This is fascinating to me, by the way, because I'm wondering if because of your professional Spidey sense, I think you called. It, Maggie. You know when there's a problem and it what would be awesome is if we could train spouses to, like, pick up on these things without all the years of professional education that you have, because my guess is there's a. Ton of guys running around who really do need the help but aren't getting the help and if they had a spouse to like kick him in the **** and like get them what they need, we'd be much better off because frankly. The guys at the fire. They're OK, I would say at like recognizing guys that are in trouble, but they're not good at it. And and if if the guy at the fire department is recognizing it, more than likely the the guy who they're looking at is in some sort of crisis, whereas the spouse is at home, is seeing everyday stuff. So I don't know what the, what the opportunity like could we could you train someone? All the you know, becoming a therapist to, like, recognize these things and prompt care to be given or. What are your thoughts on that?
Maggie
100% that's actually one of the goals around the first responder partner group that I'm going to be running is, you know, these are the things to look out for. You know, let's, let's really and and everyone has to have each others backs on, you know their their wives, who are friends, who are going to be in this group who are like, yeah, we can look out for each other and like. If I see something, if we're all hanging out. If I see something in your husband that I think is concerning, I want to come to you. But yeah, absolutely. Training the wives and showing them. Like these are the things to look out for. Because we're going to see. Yes, I get the Firehouse. There's there's one piece. Right. But then we see a different side of you guys when you're at home. So. We're going to see more of the vulnerability we're going to see, you know, just like the more human side, rather than just the work side.
Peter
I know I. Mean we're just talking through this cause we struggle for. How can we actually like tactically? Help the people at. Home because it's it's difficult to do right and I I mean maybe this is an Ave. worth exploring the whole training, the, the, the family back at home for. Things to look out. For one other line of question that I have for you, Maggie is what is the difference between a firefighter or a first responder traumatic? Patient that you're seeing and someone from a different community that that arguably probably is seeing things equally as. Dramatic. Are there differences or at its core? Is it the same?
Maggie
I mean, there's two different schools of thought where it's. Like there's degrees of trauma. And yeah, there are. Degrees of trauma. But I think just because of what I work with, I work exclusively. Domestic violence survivors, sexual assault survivors. You know, I've got some trans clients who have been horrifically raped. You know, and some of these things are just. My God, no one should ever have. To experience these things. And it's almost the same thing with first responders. It just comes to me, it comes down to no one should ever have to experience that. So it's like that kind of trauma is what I work with. So for me, there's not varying degrees. Yeah, for me.
Peter
It's the same, so it's the same, yeah.
Maggie
It is, yeah.
Jason
I would say that I'll bet it has to do with I.
Peter
My mind goes.
Jason
Bet it has to do with the amount too. So you have PTS to move for. For a normal person who maybe has that horrible incident once or hopefully never twice in their life. And then you have first responders who are like, oh, that's a regular part of my being, right.
Speaker
Yeah, yeah.
Maggie
That complex? Yeah. The complex PTSD part. 100% well and like. Because I work with marginalized communities, they're they've already got some adverse childhood experiences, some adverse community environments that they're dealing with too. So it just kind of layers on, you know, and most sexual assault survivors will be assaulted again at some point, just statistically speaking. So. Yeah. The complex trauma piece is there. Yeah. So that complex trauma piece is there for those survivors as well. But yeah, with I think particularly with first responders and you know, combat veterans, what I'm seeing more often is like it's so repetitive, like it's just it's not. Yes, there might be a sexual assault survivor who's had two or three assaults, and I'm not minimizing that experience. For them, it's horrific and they deserve care and help. And you know that that love and healing energy. We can give them. The first responders, just given the repetition of it and there's no downtime for them in between. It's, you know, the turning around and looking at the guy, but you good, OK, because we're going. To another call like. Yeah, there was this. There was this gunshot. Whatever JSW there was a 5 year old that got hit OK, you're good because we got to go to another one where there's a pregnant mom who's hemorrhaging and we don't know what's going on. And then OK, after that, you good. Good. Because we got to go to this giant car accident. You know, it's. That that repetition, you don't see that anywhere else.
Jason
Yeah. So do you have anything specifically for PTSD first responder that you would say as an intervention that you'd like to ask them to go through or something that we can even do on our own when something's recognized for that, where, where do you tend to go with that?
Maggie
What I tend to do, I believe the cognitive piece like the. The thought processes around the trauma are really important. I focus a lot more on the somatic piece. So yes, in EMDR, we're going to ask you to recount what happened. I want to know like what are the the emotions, what are the feelings like where are you sensing some of this stuff? Like for Eric when he was describing some of the stuff like the emotions that would come up around when he got burned up was, you know, he was feeling the stuff in the pit of his stomach, his chest would get tight, his heart would start racing. So I focus more on like the schematic piece because I think sometimes with the cognitive stuff, if you're just talking about the event itself, you're kind of retraumatization the person. In some instances. So I mean you kind of have to kind of take it on a case by case basis, but I like to focus on the somatic stuff in terms of things that people can do in between calls, something I've worked with Eric on something I've worked with most of my clients on is just breathing techniques like that box breathing to kind of box breathing will literally get you out of an anxiety attack or a panic attack. That kind of panic response. Of breathing in for four, holding for four, exhaling for four, holding for four, and just continuing that pattern. Once you get to a place where you're feeling a little more regulated going into a. 478. Breathing pattern, breathing in for four, holding for seven and exhaling for 8:00. And just kind of doing that, actually slows your heart rate down. Just kind of gets that, you know, gets you out of that. Fight or flight response. Gets your brain into a a little more chill spot. It actually also helps you sleep too, so can be really effective to do it in the middle of the night when you're on a call rather than picking up your phone is, you know, because that blue light is going to. Just keep you. Up longer. It's doing those big exercises.
Jason
Yeah, I love the biohacks.
Maggie
Totally. Totally.
Speaker 4
Hey, this is Joe Booth from the Ventura Fire Foundation. To learn more about the foundation and our programs, visit our website, www.venturafirefoundation.org, 100% of our funding comes from generous donors. If you like what we're doing, I encourage you to become a donor. It's very easy. Just go to our website againthatsventurafirefoundation.org and click the Red Donate button at the top. Whether it's $5 or $5000. Every donation helps ensure local firefighters thrive.
Peter
You mentioned Maggie somatic. What can you define what that is? We would like to keep these things understandable for some people and myself, myself included.
Speaker
Yeah, no.
Maggie
No, that's. Yeah, I'm sorry. I can I can revert to therapist speak. Sometimes the somatic side Soma just refers to body. So just like the bodily sensations that come up, yeah. Yeah, because there's. Two kind of schools of thought of like. The cognitive piece of. Just kind of going with like thoughts, behaviors and like that kind of thing, which is all great like we want to address. That part too, but. I think having that somatic awareness to it is really important, like understanding oh, I am getting into that heightened space like I do feel my heart starts to race. I'm feeling like my breathing pattern has changed, like my stomach is feeling tight or I feel like. I want to. Throw up like those are the somatic pieces that we.
Speaker
Gotcha. Gotcha.
Maggie
Pay attention to.
Peter
Got you. One more, I feel like I'm asking you all the questions, Maggie.
Maggie
OK.
Peter
I feel like I know what Eric has to say cuz we're basically. The same, right? So. Maggie, if so, you have your therapy background and then you also are a spouse and a wife or of a firefighter, and you understand the whole fire department culture. If you could fix this in one way or or if you could make one impact and you had all the authority in the world to do it, to help with, you know, mental health for the firefighters and the wives and the kids and. All the things like what would that be? What would you do? What would like the one or two things you would do that would make the biggest difference with all these?
Maggie
Oh wow, only one or two.
Peter
Yeah, you can't fix it.
Maggie
All this is. Yeah, I know. Well, I think some. Of it's already kind of being done like that. Mandatory Wellness check once a year. I think it's fantastic. Like they everyone has to check in at least at Pasadena. I know Ventura PD has to do this as well. I would imagine fire does where you have to check in once a. Year with an adult, professional and just. You know, kind of go through. Are we good? Are we feeling OK? What are some things are coming up I would love. To have those. More often, I think you know, having a therapist who can at least like visit stations on a regular basis would be amazing. Like, that's something I would aspire to get to like. Being able to. Visit stations and be. Like everyone, good, I'm here. You know, like kind of like having a sports psychologist on site for a. Or it seemed like being on site being able to be on site more and say like, hey, I'm going to be in here for the next few hours. Like I've got half a day where I'm just going to be in this office if. Anyone needs to talk, come. On in you know doors open and yeah, I'd. Love to have stuff like that.
Peter
OK, so access more easier access to to care.
Maggie
Yeah, access is huge.
Peter
OK, perfect. Yeah. No, I like it. I I, I, I it's a good question. Go ahead.
Speaker
All right, got.
Jason
OK, I'm gonna. I'm gonna ask my standard question too, because I know that's when we always like to ask of the therapist. So right now, there's a lot of PTSD injury leave, and there's a lot of stress. Leave. Do you think that podcast like this and just awareness of bringing more and more awareness to these issues? Is causing people to. Become more stressed out or to need more leave because it's kind of always all over the place being told. Maybe this is wrong with you cause I've heard this from from some higher level folks or some older guys that are thinking that you should just still kind of shove it down, but when you keep bringing it up and you keep talking about it, maybe this is the reason that people are having issues, right? Because they keep hearing. Well, maybe there's something wrong with me and I. Can't just get over? It what are your thoughts on that cause? I'm hearing when when we have a you guys who are off on long term. Leave and we have people that probably should be on stress. Leave that don't want to take it because of. These issues but tell. Me. Tell me about kind of your thoughts on on just the awareness surrounding it and and where that leaves us as a as a.
Maggie
Community. I think sometimes there can be a risk around like, oh, there's all these things that could be wrong with you and you know, some people will start to kind of. Go that way. With it I. Generally speaking, at least for this population. I think you know, just like cancer is kind of a presumptive thing, like firefighting causes cancer fact. Firefighting causes PTSD, like being a law enforcement officer, causes PTSD. Yeah. And I think it's the PTSD PTSD thing is still. Kind of a debate. About like a lot of people. Like to call PTS I I. Continue to refer to PTSD, so sorry, it's not a semantics game, it's diagnosable. For PTSD. But. Yeah, it's, I think, yeah, sure, there might be some isolated incidents of that, but I don't think. Broadly speaking, that most people are saying like. Oh, these things could be wrong. With me, I should probably get to therapy. I think every first responder can benefit from therapy y'all see things on a regular basis that no one should ever have to see, and you have to fix problems that no one should ever have. To fix so yeah, I I.
Jason
So follow up to that. Do you think? That earlier interventions or more awareness slash therapy towards issue. Would decrease the amount of time or retirements even that that people need to be off to deal with this stuff that's real.
Maggie
Absolutely. I think you know, having a therapist introduced to like new cohorts who are coming in like in the Academy, introducing them to a therapist and saying, hey, even in the Academy what you guys are doing, it's you're having to do like superhuman things like there are the numbers of injuries that are coming out of just. People who are in academies, it's wild, Eric would tell me stories about his group who went. Through there were knee injuries there. Were shoulder injuries, you know? And everyone's having to cover it up, right because you don't want to. Get kicked out. Because you know, you definitely want to wash out of the Academy. This is the job that you're hoping for. Like you've worked. Put everything toward this. But yeah, introducing them to a therapist then and saying, like, there are people who understand this lifestyle, who are available to you. And again, with that access piece.
Jason
So I believe. Yeah, I believe we're working on getting more regular checkups in our department. Eric, maybe you can lead me into as far as Pasadena. You said they're kind of on the leading edge of of some of the peer support stuff and and the the PTSD stuff. What do you guys do that you think is maybe heads and shoulders above some of the other departments? Or that super beneficial?
Erik
Yes, I I would argue we're very progressive when it comes to the mental outside of it. So not only do we have a peer support team made-up by us, but we also rely on other area C counterparts. So if there's any other departments within our our jurisdiction within Area C that can call upon our resources and in the same way that we can. Call upon their resources. I think there's. Still a bit of a stigma attached with. You know, yes, we have a peer support, but I don't want to talk to Joe from 36A because then everyone's going to know about it. But I'm a little bit more likely to talk to the guy down the street who wears a different badge who still gets it. But I don't have to see him every day. So I think that's beneficial where we're able to utilize each other's peer support teams. If someone doesn't feel comfortable coming to ours, we do have yearly check-ins, so every member, once a year sits with culturally competent therapist. And really, it's up to an individual. How serious they they want to take it right? We're not going to force it. And like, hey, you have to open up and if you're. Not crying by the end of this then you haven't succeeded. It really is just a good old fashioned checking, but there's also avenues for lead up after that and no one needs to know about it other than you. Could it's a one-on-one session? And then we're also introducing it early. On at the Academy. Where we take a couple of hours of the Academy and like little kids, they only know what it is. You teach them. They only know what habits it is. You instill in them. So if we instill in them before they even hit the floor on day one, that mental health is real. But there's also avenues, and there's also resources for you, then that's all they know. So, or big fans of control, you can influence what? I can control bringing someone in and letting you know the resources I can. I can influence you into believing that we're not just going to talk mental health. We're actually going to. Show examples of it. We're going to lead to it and. Our membership is not afraid. To say hey I. Want to therapy and it works. So that's kind of the push that we're taking it and then having the support from the Chiefs themselves where we can easily call upon them and ask for resources. And one of our Italian chiefs overseas peer support. So we have one person to go to instead of having to send 10 different. And then the last thing we did again did some pretty good groundwork. The last thing we did was allocate some funds towards ID injuries that are mental, that are mentally related, so or mental health in nature, whereas before it was kind of a pain where if you went ID, you had to go through the city structure, you went with the non. Culturally competent therapist. And then it turned more of a pain to get back to work. Than anything else. And and it did. I think it set us back it it dissuaded people from accessing that resource. And then when we allocated FD funds specifically for it, it became so much easier because it streamlined the process. We we could go straight to a culturally competent therapist that anyone else in the city couldn't access. They were specific to us. And then those funds went straight towards. The first three sessions, so you had an intake plus three sessions and then if you still want to continue it afterwards and they could help you migrate using the type of insurance that you had. And finding someone within that network that was also culturally competent. So you took someone from out of crisis and then still provided them with aftercare.
Maggie
Yeah, leadership in Pasadena from from a wife perspective and from a therapist perspective, the the shift since you know leadership change has kind of taken place over the last few years has really been lovely to to see and to be part of. And I I really do think they're setting a great example for other departments.
Peter
Yeah, that's awesome. Eric, what is the future of eight? Oh, no. And group that you founded. What's the vision for that? What are you doing with it? What can we look forward to?
Erik
Yes, we've got our next event coming up on September 29th. I love that you. I love that you guys. Believe in the the the kitchen table and the fire service. If you're listening to this and and you're not a firefighter, we firmly believe that there's not a single problem in the world that can get solved. At the kitchen. Table it it you could take away all the equipment you. Just could never remove. A Firehouse. Kitchen table, right. So that's kind of where we're we're shifting into our next one on September 29th in Pasadena. It's elevated at night, so we're going to have a husband and wives, girlfriend, boyfriend, all the above. We make fresh pasta and for us it's something. What's a skill that we could learn that we could incorporate back into the fire service as well as take back in your own person? In life and something that you could do with a. Significant other that you could bond over. With one another. Right. And you could do together and then more importantly that you get first responded as well as as spouses or significant others together in the same safe space where you're not talking therapy, you're not talking trauma, you're just bonding and you're realizing that you have a whole lot and come with one another. Not just focusing on the first responder, but really focusing on the dynamic of the family and how to introduce events that aren't just for first responders. It's events for the the family and the and the courts and it's things that appeal to not just first responders the way boxing does. It's things that appeal to. Everyone. Yeah. And again, something that we hope if someone attends can then take you back to their fire station and be like, hey, I learned this new skill. We should do something with 36B and have something over. I'll lead it and then we can have something here at the station. It's a way to get the family and the kids. Together and make it a family event so. That that's really what we're shifting towards, yeah.
Peter
That's awesome. What's the what's the bigger picture? Is there a longer term vision? Like what? What does success look like, you know, three years from now for the organization?
Erik
Yeah. So we're partnering with other organizations as well, like the Overwatch collective is huge for us. They they support not only first responders, but they also support law enforcement, active, retired military, all of the above. So really we want to create this network of not just us but organizations like yours, organizations like that where. It's big network for someone who needs resources, who wants resources, and even if we're not subject matter experts on what it is they need, we can rely on other organizations that we do work with who can help them and guide them. In the right path and.
Peter
Help us as well. Yeah. Yeah, I like. That I know that what? Probably similar to what you guys have experienced, but we've experienced is. I mean, we're the Ventura Fire Foundation. We started with Ventura, Firefighter started the thing like Ventura, Ventura, Ventura. But the reality is it's not Ventura, it's all of us. It's all the same which is why but what? What I was curious if on yours cause now we're like expanding our horizons and and envisioning something much larger. Because that that's what matters. It doesn't matter that we work for Ventura Fire Department. It literally matters not right. And then you can, I can even argue that the fire department doesn't matter cause there's police and military and all these other people that are also in the same shoes. Right. So. Just curious what your guys thoughts were, but that's great. I think it's awesome. What? You guys are. Doing and we we would love to collaborate, work together, do whatever is necessary to to help us help both of our organizations, but.
Maggie
That would be great. I know another thing for just my own personal passion project for with eight or nine is that in further to helping, like support the spouses and the kids, there is another Pasadena fire wife who is also a licensed marriage and family therapist. And she and I have been talking quite a bit about, you know, do we do some spouse retreats like? You know, and sometimes weekends are just not possible like these really long retreats. Sometimes it's not possible so. Maybe we do. Every Friday we get together and we can go for a hike or something as much as possible, even if we're just getting together for like a zoom session. Like just hanging out and talking, like being able to have something to support the spouses is something where yeah, we have done like the fights and all those things are great for the first responders. But having more of that community for the partners, for the kids. You know, being able to do support groups for the kids is something that's, you know, to me, being able to have those established and like a recurring. That's success to me.
Peter
Yeah, I I will say that the kids are an interesting group. In fact, if you haven't heard it, we did a podcast with one of the captains at Ventura, Tom Hoffman's. Teenage daughters. If you haven't listened to it, or or listeners haven't, you did. OK, it's the perspective is wild.
Maggie
I listened. It was a good one, yeah.
Peter
The stuff that I thought they would have cared about, they didn't, and the things that they did care about kind of like, took me for surprise. But yeah, interesting. Well, we could keep.
Speaker
See and.
Maggie
We see that with our own kids too, like having to have these conversations with our kids like they I was talking with another fire wife who's also. A therapist. She's in Boston. And we were talking last night about just the stories that our kids come to us with. You know, I was explaining to her we had a loss in our our friend group last summer. One of our friends lost their daughter, and she was friends with our daughter. And when I found out about it, it gutted me and I'm sitting on the floor of our bedroom upstairs, just sobbing. Eric's, of course, on shift because all of the things happen when they're on shift. Right. So I'm sitting on the floor just like a complete wreck. The kids are downstairs, but they wanted to watch Bluey. So they came upstairs to.
Peter
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Maggie
Ask me if they. Could and my daughter, who just you know, was 6 at the time. Sees me on the floor, weeping says. Mom, what happened to Dad? And yeah, yeah. And I had to. Go daddy's OK. Daddy's OK, but the fact that my kid. Immediately goes to that.
Peter
Oh my gosh. Yeah.
Maggie
No other population has this happened like I joke all the time. Like there's civilian wives and then there's responder wives like. Civilian wives don't have this like the average guy who's going to an office like his kids don't think this, but my kids do. My kids know that there's always a possibility that, like, Dad can get hurt on the job and dad might get, you know, there's all kinds of stuff that they they carry and it's it's wild. So, yeah, supporting those kids is just so important. To me.
Peter
Yeah. Well, we don't have all the time in the world unfortunately, but I definitely want to give everyone an opportunity. Jason did we, are you chomping at the bit with something? I I don't want to gloss over you. I feel like we just take turns running. The conversation.
Jason
Podcast. No no, I think. I think we're at a good spot. I think we could do a whole nother podcast with you guys. So at some point we'll have to revisit. All this stuff, Eric, I wanna know if we wanna sign up for your event. Coming. Up in next month, how do we do that and is it at a fire station or is that a? Commercial kitchen or how do we do that?
Erik
Yes, actually a culinary school in Pasadena. Beautiful location. We're going to take over the third floor. We'll. Do like a a mixer in in the beginning and then we'll go down to the commercial kitchens. We'll set everything up and then once the food is done, first responders, we can do what we do best. We can go back. We're actually gonna cook that food. We're going to plate the food, we can leave the 1st. The stamping others to hang out and then we'll come in. We'll do a family style dinner. We can send you guys a link for that if anyone's. Interested. We still got some seats available.
Maggie
And you can also.
Erik
Yeah, you'll be able to sign up for it.
Maggie
The link is also through our Instagram, the 809 fight for awareness Instagram account, yeah. This is This is why you have. Me around. There it is. Yeah. So there's a link directly to that. It is a smaller event than what we're used to doing. So tickets are are pretty limited. I think we're half sold right now. So if anyone is interested, I would recommend.
Erik
The marketing side, right?
Maggie
Picking them up sooner than later, but we are also for this event. We're partnering with a first responder family owned winery. They're based in Paso. The owners are actually the A wife and two sons of an LA. City captain, who died by suicide in 2016. So she create they their dream was to have a winery and so after he died she was, you know, like. All right, that's it. We're going to go through with the dream. You know, we're going to do it for him. So they actually have. It's still sin sellers and they have they have a wine called aware. That they donate the proceeds to that from that to like NAMI and other organizations. But still some will be there pouring some of their wines as well. And you know I'm biased because we're wine club members of them and their friends that they make some pretty amazing stuff. So they will be there, pouring wines to pair with dinner.
Jason
Awesome. And then what's what's your guys website? Is it 8? 09 awareness do you have a website as well as Instagram?
Maggie
Yeah, it's 809 fight for awareness.com. It's the number 4. Instead of FOR, yeah.
Peter
Awesome and.
Erik
Yeah, the same.
Peter
And Maggie, if? Our listeners want to reach out to you in a professional capacity. What's the best way for them? To do that.
Maggie
Yeah. So they can send me an e-mail. It's mind matters with maggie@gmail.com. Or they can. Call or text. My number is 805-6697 eight 9.
Peter
And I assume you you're taking new clients on?
Maggie
I am, yeah. And so I also have an Instagram mind matters with Maggie. Yeah. Either way, all of those are the best way to get in touch with me.
Speaker
OK.
Peter
Awesome. This has been a great podcast. I think you guys are amazing. I love what you're both doing and thanks.
Maggie
For coming on the show, thanks for having us.
Peter
That was a good podcast. They're quite the dynamic couple. I don't know if that would be a good thing or a bad thing to be married to a therapist who focuses on 1st responders, right? Feel like that might be kind of tense occasionally, but they seem like they have it. They have it figured out and they. They do pretty good with it, but. Yeah. What do you think?
Speaker
I thought it.
Jason
Was really good. You know, I always write my notes down my favorite quote from them was control what you can and influence what? I can't. That that really opened my eyes a little bit. I'm gonna have to Stew over. That one and. Then still some sellers I'm gonna check. Out that one, it's it. Seems like they have a really cool story behind how they got started. But yeah, I'm gonna check that out. I I think that night that they talked about about having a a couples night out that's going to be cool too. It sounds like they're just doing cool stuff. And then it, you know, anytime we talk to them, the 809 fight for awareness comes up. And all I can think about is Russell. Skinner's hand held.
Peter
High over that guy that he.
Jason
That he just completely destroyed over the picture over at Station 3.
Peter
Yeah. When you said when you mentioned that quote, they said, I immediately thought of my teenage daughter control what you can and influence what you can't. And that's the teenagers in. General, you can't control them. You the best you could do is try to influence them, but I'm sure it applies to a lot of things. But anyway. Awesome. Thanks, Jason. Appreciate it. Another good episode.
Jason
Yeah, we'll talk.
