Episode 23 - The "Hot Mess Express" with Audra and Chelsi from Dear Chiefs Podcast

Audra and Chelsi, firefighter spouses and hosts of the Dear Chiefs Podcast, provide unvarnished advice for firefighters and their spouses on how to maintain their relationship while in the fire service. They go toe-to-toe with Peter and Jason on firefighter divorce rate,  balancing a firefighting career with family life, and the generational differences they see in firefighters (Gen X/Millennials/Gen Z).

Transcript

Peter

Welcome to the Firehouse Roundtable podcast, brought to you by the Ventura Fire Foundation. My name is Peter McKenzie. I'm one of the hosts. I'm retired fire captain with the city of Ventura Fire Department.

Jason

And I'm Jason Kay. I'm an active fire captain also with the Ventura Fire Department.

Peter

And we are excited that you are going to spend some time with us at the kitchen table learning about Firehouse issues that we're trying to bring awareness to.

Jason

Thanks for joining us. As we discussed the issues of being a firefighter both on and off duty and how it affects us.

Peter

Let's get right.

Speaker

Do it.

Peter

All right, we'd like to welcome. Audra and Chelsea, from the Dear Chiefs podcast to the show. Welcome to the. Show guys.

Chelsi

How are you? Hi, thanks for. Having us?

Peter

Yeah. We're looking forward to this conversation. But before we get started, for the sake of our listeners who don't know who you are, maybe a quick one or two-minute bio on each of you. And then we'll get right into it.

Audra

Well, it's funny because when we were filling out this bio, I'm going to throw Chelsea under the bus here. The guys told me that I filled out a form for both of us, but Chelsea filled out the. Form just for Chelsea.

Chelsi

I thought I was supposed to do.

Audra

OK, I didn't realize it was like a me and Chelsea thing. I just always include this all together and and the deer chiefs thing. So we're deer chiefs podcast. I'm Audra and the crazy half. Actually, I think we're equally crazy at this point. Yeah, 100%. We started our podcast. During the pandemic in 2020. And it's just been. Hot mess. Ever since I don't know what do. You think, Charles, I think.

Chelsi

Yeah, we're a hot mess express, but we. Do have we do bring some things? To the table. We're both work from home mothers. We've been married to our firefighters collectively for 21 years. You know, that's basically it. We've been going through it. For almost. What half of our lives now?

Speaker 5

It's like it, yeah.

Peter

Say you I'm. I'm excited about your guys's perspective because obviously the title of your OR or or.

Jason

The the.

Peter

Push for your podcast is more towards the spouses and that's an area we're interested in as well, but obviously we are the opposite spouses as you guys. Which I think will be an interesting. Kind of back and forth when we get into it, but before we get too far, talk to me about the title of your podcast, because when I see the title it I have something in my head, but I don't. Know if that's. What you have in your head. So how did you arrive at the title of your podcast, and what's behind that?

Audra

It's a pretty good story. Chills, chills. Tells are very good.

Chelsi

When I was looking, we wanted to. Do a play. On words, so I was looking for something that has been said in firehouses throughout the world. Over and over and. Over again. And so I went into a forum for firefighters, and I can't even remember now what it was. And there was this discussion going on about, like, the Riff Raff that happens in the Firehouse, right, like. And then the chief comes in the next day, and somebody has to tell the chief about it. But the person that was going to tell the chief. About it is the captain and he's like. Gone. So he writes the Chiefs. A letter and it says. To your chief. Much has happened since we. Last spoke. I saw that and I just went. That's it. Because much has happened in our house since our firefighter has been gone, right? So that was it. That's how we got deer chiefs. And then it kind of evolved because now we're really talking to chiefs about mental health, of their people at work and the families at. Home so.

Peter

That's not what I expected. So in my mind. And I heard the title of your podcast. It was a wife teeing off on the chief on. Why? Basically, the fire department is screwing their family because.

Speaker 5

Well, we do that as well, yeah.

Chelsi

Yeah, don't. Don't get us wrong. Like we're talking about that.

Peter

Because I I've seen, there's been a handful of wives at our department, and Jason and I worked for the same department for a long time. I I no longer do. Jason still does. Who have done a dear chief letter to the chief and they've kind of lived in infamy on, you know, some of the content of those letters. So that's where I thought the name was coming from, which I thought was. Pretty bold, which I I I support completely but.

Audra

Yes, it it supports both ends of the spectrum. So it supports our House and our family. And then it also supports. Maybe how we? Would like to say things to our to their chief given their.

Peter

And has that message ever like I'm assuming there's been a cheaper 2 that's listen to the podcast. Or maybe you've had one on or like, what does that? Has that ever happened?

Audra

You know, to be honest, we have not had a Fire Chief on yet.

Speaker 5

It's been.

Audra

Discussed. We have yet to have one that would. Dare to be on. I think to be honest with you. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker

Is this?

Peter

One that's brave enough.

Audra

But we've definitely had conversations about former chiefs, things we've said to chiefs, things we've heard people say to chiefs.

Peter

Yeah, well, let's. Get right into it. So I'm excited about the conversation because obviously Jason and I have a podcast and our point of view is from us and your Guys podcast is from you guys and you guys are the spouses and we were or are the firefighters and. Those you know. Just in listening to some of your. Podcast you're telling the story of the other side of the coin, and Jason and I are telling the opposite story, right? And a lot of times, those things cross over and the similar things we're trying to bring awareness to, let's talk about what's going on at Chelsea's house. So she's got kids running around. It's summer time. No one's in school, it's chaos, which is a big part of. The world that we. Live in, right. I can't wait for our kids. Go back to school, but so if you hear the noise in the in the background, that's.

Audra

Next week.

Jason

What that is? Yeah, we got a countdown going. All the way around here.

Speaker 6

I could tell for kids to.

Jason

Get back into school.

Audra

I can't work.

Jason

So why don't you guys talk about where your podcast came from? Now that we have the title? What led you to start? Doing it and then kind of what what got? It to blow up and get to the point where it is today with almost 13,000 followers and on Instagram and all that. Kind of stuff.

Audra

Funny story I we've told this a few times, but we'll tell one more time. We actually met on Instagram, so. When we started the podcast, we hadn't met in person. In fact, we didn't meet in person for a couple of years later because the pandemic happened and nobody was leaving their house. We met on Instagram because Chelsea and I were supposed to be guests at a.

Speaker 5

By your wife, I guess you.

Audra

Could call it convention down. In Huntington Beach that ended up being cancelled and we kind of had both been, I don't want to call it blogging, but well, maybe Chelsea has been blogging for a long time about her life as a fire wife, and I had been on Instagram into the blogging. I don't know what you call it and. So we met and we started talking kind of through DMS and decided that we wanted to do something, something together and the. Our guest came to fruition, so we really had no clue what we were doing. We just kind of said, yeah, Chelsea was like, what's our podcasting like, cool. Let's do it. Let's start it tomorrow. And that was it. And then we just released season four, our first episode of season four, and we are actively recording like, crazy. And over the past, I would say year or so, maybe two years we have. Definitely hit. I don't want to say hit a nerve, but we have kind of hit a gold mine because this stuff Chelsea and I knew had not been talked about for a long time is now being talked about a lot. And I think you guys see that too with more mental health podcasts and just, you know, fire fighters coming on and. And talking more about what's going on at their home and what's going on at work and how it affects. And their families and their marriages. And I think you know.

Speaker 5

A lot of.

Audra

It was luck and a lot of it is perseverance because even when 20 people were listening to. Our podcast we. Were still recording and still releasing new content and really just pushing for it because we knew there's there is a huge need for fire families. To feel like they aren't alone and that they are understood and the stuff that they feel is normal.

Jason

Yeah. Yeah, I agree with you. I couldn't agree. With you more, there's. A couple of things. You you hit on that I. Want to touch on? First of all, life of a fire wife. Is that so? Where? Where I come from and the expression in the Firehouse that. I'm in. It's. Usually something like hashtag life of a fire wife, and then there's some poor long haired blonde woman with a giant ring on her finger that just happens to be fanning herself with her hand or something like that. And it's usually meant in sarcasm and in in. Kind of a fun. A fun way is that the same thing that you guys have?

Speaker 6

Up up north, where you guys are.

Audra

I mean, that's not true for us.

Chelsi

No, not at all.

Jason

No, no, it's.

Chelsi

Not at all.

Jason

Definitely not true, which is why it's the sarcasm and the play on words and the and the and the funny part. It's completely at misnomer and my wife is the first one to stick her.

Chelsi

So funny.

Jason

Stand up and go. Yeah, I think she needs a backhand. Let's get realistic here and talk about what's going on.

Audra

It's funny because like so, one of the recent reels that we posted was me in a pool and it was complete satire, and that was probably, well, actually, no, that wasn't the first time we got to nasty comments, but there were so many trolls just saying that most. Dom, asinine comments like, oh, you're $150,000 pool like, oh, blah, blah, blah. Just whine, whine, whine and I'm. Oh my goodness. My first thought was, Oh my God, I'm not doing reels anymore. I hate jerks on the Internet, and I was like, you know what, actually, I really don't care because I know, like, my husband works off. I work my off. Sorry, we can't say sorry. My **** off. And I don't really care what people.

Speaker

OK.

Audra

Think so? The idea that you know. This stay at home Mom, who has these giant rings and wears the you. Know the big. Hats and although we do love our.

Speaker 5

Big hats so.

Chelsi

This is true. We do.

Audra

And you know.

Chelsi

Love our big hat? Give me a Derby hat any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

Audra

I am happy, but it's it's that the idea of that, you know, fire wife is just so convoluted and it just it makes us. Laugh because we're. Like. Yeah. No, that's not real life at all.

Speaker 5

It's it's, it's, it's.

Chelsi

Disgusting to me. I just. I'm like, I wish that that was. My life, you know like.

Audra

Right.

Speaker 6

Right.

Chelsi

If, if any. Of that was true, I would probably be. So much better off.

Jason

Yeah. And I I prefer your first example of saying the hot mess express that was that's perfect.

Peter

Yeah, we've had a saying on this podcast many times is firemen are fun to date and they're horrible to be married to because you're you're basically on your own and just an island doing your own thing. But that you do bring up a good point because there's a. Lot of and you guys are both in California, correct? So there's so the California Fire Service is unique, but there's especially in our political environment, we get a lot of hate sometimes politically, for pensions and all. The stuff that nobody wants. That that I don't really want to talk about. But then then you have people like. Us over here. Saying there's issues that this this is a problem, this is a problem. This is a problem and that and I don't, this is not my belief. I'll just say that right off the bat. But the people that do throw the hate are like the people that you said, oh, you're 100,000. Dollar this and. You're that are the same. And then then. How did that's not received? Well, when we then raise our hands and go away, it's really hard over here. We have mental health issues. We have spouse issues. We have kids. It's an interesting conversation, not a popular conversation by any means, but I think that that's maybe going to get worse as we bring more awareness to the downside. You know, the dark side of the fire service and what it does to the firemen. And the families. But interesting.

Audra

All right, it's going to.

Chelsi

Get worse. I don't think it's going to get. Worse, I think it's. For me personally, my husband works for Cal. Fire. So I'm going to go. Right ahead and say that. When the cow Matters, report came out about the severity of the length of time that they're on fires. The mental health status of the firefighters and their families. When that report came out, I I I could not walk downtown and not have somebody apologize to me so. And I got emails from people that I hadn't heard from in years. And they're just like, hey, I totally didn't know. And I'm so sorry for you. And I'm like, you don't have to be sorry. It's my husband's job. But also, this is a real issue and it needs addressing not only by. California HR, but also in general for all firefighters and their families. And so I don't think we're going. It's going to get worse. I think it's going. To get better.

Peter

I hope you're right and I'll just share some personal experience from Jason and I's podcast. We've gotten negative feedback about, you know, what you guys are well paid. You're this the from people in our circles, fire service people. You shouldn't be airing The Dirty laundry about the sleep issues and the this issues and to that I put the middle finger up. But I'm just saying it, it's out there and I don't even think it's a risk. I don't think any of this warrants not doing what we're doing. I think what we're doing is much better and and needed and all that, but it is an interesting. Nuance to the conversation.

Chelsi

That's so.

Audra

Interesting though.

Chelsi

Not nothing but support. I like when we started this, I told I was terrified, remember Audra? Because I was like. Dude, why I can't do that? My husband's going. To get fired. But the support that we've gotten from Cal Fire Wellness from the Benevolent Fund, from the Union, I mean the unions, like our biggest fan. So for me, we haven't had that experience. So I'm also really careful. About what I say too, and like prefacing it. With this is my opinion.

Audra

But I think it's, I think, Peter, you make an interesting point because for me personally, I. Completely separate how much money you make versus mental health because they don't have anything to do. With each other at. All you could make as much money as there is in the world and still have mental health problems. So for me, like we see billionaires jumping off buildings all the time. So to me they don't have anything to do with each other for people to say that. You can't complain because you make this much money. No, that's complete. I'm going to say a bad word because that's that's just not the case. Anybody can have a mental health issue. Anybody can struggle at home. Anybody can. You know. Have substance abuse problems. It doesn't matter how much money you make, that has nothing to do with it. So anybody saying that you shouldn't be talking or airing out your dirty laundry because you make this much? Money. No. Sit down. Stop.

Peter

I agree completely. I think it's I. Think it's for sure but. I guess what I'm saying is. And maybe and and for the record, we get tons of supportive feedback and we have people who really like what we're doing and what I'm talking about is a very small. Minority it's just interesting to to add you know a layer to the conversation.

Speaker 6

Well and it's.

Audra

Interesting because in the fire service too, especially you guys still and I shouldn't say guys, the service in general still has the stigma of not wanting to talk about mental health, right? And some of them still don't believe that mental health is an issue. And I mean, I see it all the time. I hear it all the time from people who work in. Departments, they're like, oh, just. Shove it down. You're fine. Move on, move on.

Peter

Yeah, I think that issue is going to fix itself through time because I think that's a very antiquated mentality and I think a lot of the, the younger people coming up who are taking in leadership positions. Feel differently, or they're just have different inputs in their life that I think that's going to phase out, but we're stuck with it for a little while. For sure. So we.

Audra

Please see, I think disagrees.

Chelsi

Were just having this I have I.

Speaker 5

Have I have I have?

Chelsi

Yeah, I'm. I'm a I'm. A jaded 15 year veteran of this crop.

Speaker 5

So let me.

Chelsi

Tell you I disagree. Because until we get away from the 1940s model of Wifey's at home. Barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen and doing all the things and firefighters at work right until we get away from 1940s mentality, it's not going to fix itself because we're still operating as if there is a spouse at home taking care of the kids in the house. That's not working. And I. I I deal with this every single day of my life. So I'm telling you it's true. And I think Audra, on some levels does too. My husband agrees with me on this, and he would come. On this podcast and say. It like 100% until we get away from that 1940s. Well, nothing's gonna.

Peter

Change. So let me clarify. Let me clarify when I say this is going to fix itself, I'm talking about different generations have different viewpoints. For example, like the millennial generation looks at mental health differently. They look at work life balance differently. And when I say that, that's what I'm referencing. When the millennials are leading the fire. Nervous. It's going to be different. It's not going to be perfect. I'm not saying it's going. To change everything. But they have a different viewpoint on some of those key issues that the people leading the fire service today don't have. In fact, I mean, there's a whole nother kind.

Audra

I got.

Peter

Of worms like. The millennial generation versus the generation that's older that Jason and I came. There's a huge struggle going on there between.

Jason

I don't know if I'm OK with you dragging. Me into this. Conversation I'm I'm having, I'm.

Speaker 6

Having popcorn over here, watching Peter and.

Jason

Chelsea go at it like.

Chelsi

Look, look good. Look, look, look.

Speaker

This is getting.

Chelsi

Look, look, my money is on Jen. Jen Z. Personally, because here's the deal, Jen Z. And I'm watching my Jen Sears right now. I'm sure Audrey, seeing this too. He wants to know how to drive a tractor. He wants to know how to plant a garden. He wants to. Know how to feed a horse. They're the doers and they also understand their rights. And they want what's good for their mental health. I think when Gen. Z comes up, that's when the real shift's going to happen. I do not have any trust in millennials. I'm sorry.

Jason

Give me the give me the Gen. Z ages. To see if. I agree with that. What is Gen. Z agent?

Chelsi

So there are 13 on. Up at this point, there's no cap on Gen. Z. I don't think.

Jason

So when does Gen. X and Gen. Z kind of?

Audra

So Gen. X and then millennial and then Gen. Z right. That's how it goes.

Peter

Yeah, Gen. X is older than.

Audra

So I'm I'm right? On the cusp of Gen. X and.

Jason

Got it. OK.

Audra

Millennial, so.

Chelsi

Audra and I are are. Yeah. Yeah. So we had the recorded phone and we also. Had the Internet right.

Jason

Yeah, OK. So I'm a I'm a I'm a Gen. Xer and I think what Peter's saying I I agree with all of you. I think you're kind of all saying the same thing from an outside sort of. Perspective, which is the people who are in charge right now, were brought up with that 1940s mentality, right. And I totally agree. And they're trying. But they're having a really hard time getting their hands around and their brain around the fact that this might be real. And it's not an excuse. Guys are using to go off work. Right. This next generation that's coming up, they better fall in line or else guys are going to look at them and go. I don't want that job and we're starting to see numbers, numbers. I won't even say decline, but almost collapse with how many people are applying for the job because of the millennials coming up going. I don't know that I want to drive a tractor and work for a living and be super blue. Smaller and and. Part. But I also think that it's time to get on board, which is kind of I think what Peters alluded to by it'll fix itself because if you don't. The fire service is just going to be in, in despair because there these problems are real. They are happening. The departments are seeing this huge shift in, in people raising their hand and going. I don't want to be here 30 years anymore. I can't do it anymore. And and how do I leave at 20? Like a lot of police officers can figure out how to do because. When you get the job, when I got the. Job 2223 years ago. Nobody talked about. But it was just not only something that you kind of shoved down and dealt with yourself, but it's part of the risk of the job and almost worn as a badge of pride. Yeah. So I'm actually stoked in the direction in general that the fire department is heading. And I'm so glad to bring awareness to all of this stuff with, you know, doctor Oz that we had on. And Tiffany.

Speaker

Oh yeah.

Jason

Kala and all. The all the mental health experts, Dr.

Speaker

Yeah. So I'm, I'm.

Chelsi

I'm stoked to see where it's. Going but we've got a long way to go.

Speaker 6

I agree with you.

Chelsi

Before we, that's that's kind of the. Point I was. Trying to. Make like we're not there. We have a very long way to go and as you guys know in the fire service and state service. And all of those things things take for government.

Peter

The government. It's terrible, yes.

Speaker

It's the.

Peter

And when I I also. Want to say one other thing cause when I say it's going to fix itself, that doesn't mean we have no obligation to do anything and it's just going to fix itself. That's that's absolutely not what I'm saying. What? Thing is, we're going to get rid of that old mentality just through attrition. You can't be a fireman and be 80 years old, right? It's just not possible. So.

Jason

This is my favorite episode to watch Peter. Dig himself out of these holes.

Speaker

I know guys.

Chelsi

70s that has no.

Peter

Ohh, he's leaving. I guarantee you he's leaving.

Chelsi

No plans to retire? Maybe he'll. Leave one way or the other, but he's not planning on retiring soon, so yeah.

Speaker

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Peter

So so I want to talk about something so. Jason and I have our perspective just from being in the Firehouse and you guys have your perspective from where you see things. What do you if you had, if you could smack firemen up the face and like, wake them up on like, what are the top like two or three issues that if you could wave your magic wand and fix or bring awareness to or whatever. You want to say it? What would it be?

Audra

Stop calling in sick when you're not.

Chelsi

Overtime. Yeah, well, yeah, that stop calling. It sick when? You're not. Stop telling your wife that you got mandated when you actually took the overtime on purpose.

Peter

OK. OK, that's two.

Chelsi

Prioritize your family over your job because your job is not going to hold you when you're dying.

Peter

OK, good. I I got three from you. Audra, how's your top three? This is fascinating to me, and it's not what I expected. I'll share once we hear address.

Audra

I mean mine I think is when you're ready to retire, please do. Don't. I mean, I could go off on this, but I'll try not to. Just don't stick around because you're trying to Max out your pension. Just get out of there. Please God.

Speaker 5

And then I'm I.

Audra

Kind of mirror the same thing as Chelsea is. Like prioritize your family and don't take the union. Job because it's all.

Speaker

OK.

Peter

All right, so. Let me add some context to this conversation. We've had probably not as many experts as you guys have had because you've got 100 and some episodes and we're like 20, I think. But the the ones that really get it, like the culturally competent therapists who understand the fire service and who also have background in in some sort of practitioner. Position I we point? Blake asked him. You can fix the fire department. You have absolute authority to do one thing. To fix it, what would it be? And do you know what the number one answer is? I'll ask you. Guys first or? Audra and Chelsea, what's the if you had to guess what that is from a from a psych psychologist or a family therapist?

Audra

Mandatory debriefing.

Jason

OK, that would be one of our guesses. Yep.

Chelsi

I don't know, man. Let's over time prioritize your family.

Peter

OK. So it's not prioritize your family, it is. Don't work so. Much so it all goes back to this mandatory overtime sick calls that are getting guys mandated. It all goes back to that and here you guys are spouses and I'm like what is your number one thing, Chelsea. No sick call. So he doesn't get mandated and don't lie to me when you volunteer to be. Mandated and you actually work. And the third thing, the third thing was support the family. Yeah, but it's just fascinating to me. But the reality is, if you weren't getting mandated and your husband was home, that that he'd be a more. Supportive person cause he'd be at home more.

Chelsi

Yeah. OK. But I think you have to understand. Like my husband. Works for an agency that doesn't have an end in overtime and I think there is no cap on the amount of days that they can hold my. Husband on duty.

Audra

But I think it's the same in Southern California, right? I feel like it's the same, most, most apartments who are struggling on the mandos. Have the same thing, right? There's no Max hold, but do you guys have a Max hold though? Right. Oh, you do? Yeah.

Jason

Well, but you know Peter, Peter's not.

Speaker

So it's not good.

Jason

Allowed to talk about. This cause he's retired so.

Peter

Yeah, go for it. Go for it. Go for it.

Jason

I'll talk about this.

Speaker

And I think.

Jason

So in theory, right, it's it's a 120, so it's five days. In reality it there's a stipulation at the bottom of every one of our operational guidelines that says that. He can do what he needs to do to run the department and also in reality when we go out of town for brush fires, which is I think 12 months out of the year, now we can go for up to 21 days at a time. It is not Cal Fire numbers. I will not say that it is as hard to be a city firefighter as it is to be a Cal Fire firefighter because of the amount of days that they get manned and they work in a row because I know that that's more.

Audra

Right.

Chelsi

OK, so right.

Jason

Than me so go.

Chelsi

I think we need to clarify that so you get your 21 days, right then do you? Get to go home.

Jason

Well, we might. Have to go to a station. We we we may have to go back to station, but we do have rules in place to where you need X amount of hours of rest when you get back and then they're absolutely not going to hold you at the station for more than your regular shift when you get back. So if you do get back at most, it'll be one or two days more.

Speaker 6

24.

Audra

OK.

Jason

And then you'll have a few. Days off so.

Chelsi

That's the difference. When the Cal Fire guys get back to their station after their 21 days, there's no end to the hold.

Audra

Oh, they're not mandated to go home for like ours, that you have mandatory 24 hours.

Chelsi

They they are not. They can, they can put them. In a hotel for 40. 8 hours. Or they can.

Jason

That's rest, right?

Chelsi

That's rest. That's their 48 hours of rest, but they do not have to. Send them home. They yeah.

Jason

Yeah. And I support that Cal Fire contract and what they're doing to their guys with the amount of change that they're trying to make. I support Cal Fire wholeheartedly. In fact, one of our battalion chiefs wives is the mental health Battalion Chief for Cal Fire. And I don't know. If it's just Southern California. Or all of California, but.

Chelsi

Is she? Yeah. Is she? Is she like the top person in ESS?

Jason

Those are terms that I don't would.

Chelsi

No, because she's battalion to you.

Jason

Not know the answer to.

Chelsi

So she works under whoever is in charge. At at at state level.

Audra

I'm telling you, it's Cal Fire is the only one that does s s. We don't. Have s s well.

Jason

What does that stand for?

Chelsi

They have to. It's it's employee support service support.

Jason

Yeah. So we do have things like peer support and we do have things like counselors and therapists that are available, which is pretty awesome, but it's definitely not something as big as what Cal Fire has, which is probably some kind of law mandated by somebody because it's a state thing where they actually have paid positions in uniforms, that is.

Speaker

Oh yeah. Thank you.

Jason

Part of the support like.

Peter

That I'll just circle this back around the point of this little impromptu poll is that pretty much everybody's on the same page like these people work too much. It's screwing the families. They work too much, they're getting PTSD, they're bringing it home, they're screwing the. It's the problem. It's not that. The husband is suffering from PTSD and he's, you know, those are the issues and but he's home all the time. Like, that's not the issue. It is an issue. I don't wanna minimize that. But the issue is that they're not there. And when we when Jason and I.

Audra

Right.

Peter

Got hired, we. Weren't working. Those kind of crazy hours. It was hard to get overtime. People wanted overtime now and this department ours anyway, but he wants the overtime. They want nothing to do with the over. Time, but it's not possible. So just in. In an interesting layer of the conversation. That I when. When I asked those questions, I would. Expect it to. Be like more self-awareness, more one-on-one time with your spouse. More, whatever those things are. And then nobody ever answers the question that way. It's like just. Let him come home or her home.

Audra

Yeah, and it. Goes back to what you're talking about earlier.

Jason

Work less and get some quality sleep, yeah.

Audra

Too you think about it. I mean, it really is all-encompassing, right? So like you were talking about people think California firefighters are paid too much. Well, you're paid too much in one because you're endowed 21 days in a row, right? So if you take the mandos away, you're not getting paid enough, most likely to be able to afford to live in California, right? So it all comes together in this just bubble of just. Crazy crap that you're just peeling back layers, constantly trying to figure out how to make your life work and, you know, have a career where you can only work for 25 years and get out. I mean, nobody wants a I'm sorry. I love firefighters, but nobody wants a 60 year old man. Or woman running into a burning building. Saving me like I'm I'm gonna.

Speaker 5

For no offense to the 60 year olds, I love you all. You should be chief. OK, but it's like that's that's not like.

Audra

I don't know. It's just. My husband got hired when he was 31, so you know, by the time he's done with his career, he'll be 57. He even. He's like my knees. Can't take that like. I'm not running up the stairs. I don't. I don't want to do that, you know. So just.

Peter

I I want to. I want to explore what you said, Audra. But but first, before we do that, I want to flip this around, and I want what are the two or three things you could change about a new fire wife? And I'm curious is if this is the same advice Jason would Jason and I. Would give.

Audra

Well, change is a bad word. You don't say change if. We could tell the. What to expect? We call it what to expect when you marry a firefighter. It's like what to expect when you're expecting? I mean, I don't think anybody can be mentally prepared for how much you're going to be by yourself. And so it takes a really independent person to be married to a first responder. Because you have to. Be OK with being alone a. Lot. That's what I would. Say, what would you say? Just I would.

Chelsi

Say I would echo that I I we always say to be compassionately curious. If you have questions about what goes on at work, ask them. Always be talking to each other. Find ways to connect both when they're at work and when. They're at home. And prioritize their relationship over everything. I mean, that's really all you can hope and be patient. You know, I think in our early days, Audrey, and we're probably not very patient at all with our spouses and especially when we had toddlers running around, it's really hard. Don't hit them when they come in the door with all the problems of the house and all the things give them. Time to decompress and. And integrate into the home and find their footing before you like. Here, take the kids. I'm leaving. You know you need a break too, but man, they just been at it for 4872 hours with no rest, so.

Peter

Gotcha. That's so that's from my perspective. It's basically the same thing that it's do you have to figure out how to do this on your own, which is terrible to say it's like hey, we just got. I'm married. I'm out of here. You're on your own. Figure it out. Like that's horrible, right?

Jason

It's very similar, I'd say independency and and resiliency is huge for the wife of a firefighter. And then the other thing is you got her just like firefighters search out the experienced guys or the old timers at the Firehouse. I'd say wives need to talk to some experienced firefighter wives. Because we don't want to talk to the people who are in it. In the five year game and then get divorced because divorce rates are high in the fire service, right. But we in everywhere but also in the fire service. How about?

Audra

That's a sore subject, Jason. It's actually knocks through.

Speaker 5

It's the same.

Chelsi

That they're equal, they're equal.

Audra

It's the same. Yeah. There's no there's no. Real proof that the.

Peter

Get your get your shovel out, Jason, get.

Speaker 5

Yeah. Yeah. Now, now Jason's digging himself up.

Chelsi

Has been that has been researched.

Jason

I'm OK being wrong. Keep going. Just.

Chelsi

It it has been researched the.

Speaker

We will admit.

Chelsi

The last research was done in like what 2017, right?

Audra

That we could find.

Chelsi

That we could find.

Jason

OK, so in 2016 they were way more. In the fire service? No, I'm just kidding with you. I'd love to see the difference because. I feel like when. You see, they talk about police officers and firefighters have a high divorce rate, higher than everybody else. I'll bet you those numbers are from like the 90s or the 80s when all the divorce rates were insanely high, right?

Chelsi

That's not true. Well, nobody can show.

Speaker 5

Yeah, I've asked. I've.

Chelsi

Asked people that actually say that that are actual therapists or lawyers or whatever to show me the data, and they cannot show me the data. So that is a lie that is being fed to you as a firefighter to scare you.

Audra

Yeah, I love it. I mean the divorce rate in our country is.

Chelsi

Out of being.

Audra

50% right.

Chelsi

Yeah. And firefighters are 50% or lower.

Audra

Yeah, it's actually lower. I think it was 4.

Speaker 6

50% is terrible.

Audra

Oh my God. In Spain it's 90%, but I digress.

Speaker

Talk to.

Jason

The experienced firefighter wives and say, what would make your relationship better? Because I do think there's some some struggles that firefighter relationships go through. That others are. I mean, I'll even generalize and say most people it's just different. It's a very different relationship being away and being apart from each other as much as as much as we are. And I think the expectation when. You get married. It's. I don't think anybody has that expectation of being apart from each other 2/3 of the time. And having having a son. Low bed, you know, half the time plus. But I think that experience would be huge for the, for the firefighters who are about.

Speaker 6

To get married.

Chelsi

Hey I I love my solo bed. Thank you very much.

Audra

But that was really one of the reasons why we started the podcast too. I mean it. There's not a lot out there when it comes to the perspective of the fire wife or the fire spells. But I mean, in all honestly, we couldn't have done this even 10 years ago. We didn't have enough experience. You know, you can't have a. And no offense to the the spouses out there who are newly married, but you just don't know enough to be educated on the matter, I mean. You can think you do, but. And the I think the 1st 10 years of the service is just so crazy. I mean, especially if you're brand new married, you're starting a family, you know your spouse is out there starting this career. It's just like it's complete chaos. You're still learning about yourselves. You're still learning about how to, you know, be married. And then you throw some kids into the mix and your firefighters gone for, you know, 2/3 of the. Life every year is it's so chaotic and there's no way I would have had enough information to even talk about this ten years ago.

Jason

My wife would talk a lot about it, about how when is it going to slow down because you go to paramedic school, then you go to the Fire Academy and then you're on probation and she goes, you're testing for engineer now you're and now you're and she now understands it's not gunning, it just keeps going right until you decide to slow your career down. Whenever that is that you're going to start talking about and trending towards retirement and. I like to see a lot of these guys start slowing down a little bit as they get towards those years and some of these guys don't. They have their foot on the gas pedal until the day they're like, oh, I guess it's over.

Audra

That'll be my husband. Oh, my God.

Peter

I want I want to. Add a layer to this conversation because I've struggled with this my whole career and I honestly think that we have it wrong. If you're going to be a good fireman, quote UN quote, new fireman, probation first five. Years, whatever you want to call. It you have to do certain things, you have to volunteer for the mandates you have. To be the one that. That does all the stuff that nobody else. Wants to do which. In my mind, right, and I didn't always have a popular. This wasn't always a popular opinion. You're if you make that choice to be a good fireman and it screws your family. It. How does that reconcile? Because sometimes, you know, you might have a vacation with your family or your wife might be going somewhere something important in her life, and you're going to jump on the sword because you're trying to do what you're supposed to do to be the good rookie and the good first couple of year. Firemen. Yet you're actively by doing that. You're actively. Choosing to I don't wanna say sacrifice, but screw your family over. And is that right or wrong? Cause in my mind, like what's number one, I don't think it's the fire department. I think. I think it's the. I think it's your family, right and that and that in the fire service in the fire station that is not a popular opinion. Go ahead Chelsea.

Chelsi

I got this Audra. I think it's both. I think that you can find a balance between being a good firefighter and being a good husband or wife. I think it's a conversation that needs to happen with your spouse. How much is too much overtime? How? Much is too much. Sacrifice and I don't think you really find that out until you're in it. And I think that first five years is really when you like. It's a make it or break it time like Audrey was saying, you don't know until you know. And I would add that even as. 1520 year veterans here. We don't have it all figured out. We're still hitting our head on brick walls all the time. And so I think it's both. I think you have to decide as a human, if you're going to be a good spouse and that might not be a popular opinion, but that's the truth.

Peter

Well, you're making a choice one way or the other, you're either choosing the fire service or you're choosing your family and it's not black and white, and I get that that there's more.

Speaker 6

Being tanks some.

Jason

That but.

Chelsi

It's intentional. Intentionality is important.

Peter

Add kids to the mix and now like for me, that's when it got even harder for me because now I have little babies at home. I feel like I'm screwing them.

Chelsi

Yeah, I think it's an understanding that your family is sacrificing for you while you're sacrificing for the public. And I think that going into a relationship with someone, they need to know that they're going to make the sacrifice. And will they know what the sacrifices are? Absolutely not. Can they prepare for the sacrifices that are coming? No, absolutely not. But they need to know this is going to be a sacrifice. And instilling that in your kids like dads out there, working hard for the public and protecting people and property, and we have to be here sacrificing for Dad or mom.

Peter

But I guess my the the. Point I would make back. To you. Is granted for sure. Don't disagree. With what you're saying? But like what percentage of your family are? You willing to give up like?

Chelsi

Well, so I think that's a personal choice. I I think that again that's. A personal yeah.

Audra

Here's where I think millennials have it kind of on the extreme opposite spectrum, I think. And tell me if you agree with this Jason Peters, I'm curious. Millennials who are hired now don't. I don't want to say don't care because that's so negative. They have priorities and it's not the fire service, right? Their priority is their family, their home, the stuff they want to do. So they do. This is going to sound so negative. I'm sorry. Millennials, they do the bare minimum. They are not invested like the Gen. Xers, right? That's my perspective. They will push the envelope as far as they can because they have prioritized themselves over the job and I'm really sorry that sounds so bad, but.

Chelsi

And I don't. I don't think that's. I don't think that's selfish, though I think that's actually smart and some I think. That but it's.

Audra

Extreme they've been.

Chelsi

Like there's a fine string, right? Yeah.

Speaker

I I would.

Peter

Agree with Chelsea, I would. Their byproduct of the Gen. X are sacrificing too much of their families, so they're going. The pendulum is swinging.

Audra

Yeah, definitely. They're. The opposite.

Chelsi

And that's why my money's on.

Speaker 5

That and that Stanzi.

Chelsi

Jen, what did?

Speaker

I say Gen. Z.

Peter

But Chelsea, Chelsea. That's probably also why you said people shouldn't be calling in sick, screwing the their other people in the station. It's the millennials because they're, like, going. No, my me, my family, me is more important. I'm not saying that.

Speaker

Oh yeah.

Chelsi

But what's really interesting?

Peter

I'm not saying that's good. I'm just saying it's it's a balancing act that we're seeing switch back.

Audra

Definitely. But what's really interesting about?

Peter

And forth anyway.

Chelsi

What you just. Said is. I did say don't call. In sick and screw your partner. But on the same token.

Peter

But that's screwing the family that's really screwing.

Audra

Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah.

Peter

The fake thing.

Chelsi

Right. So but also if you're having. Stress and you. Need to take care of yourself. Please go do that like. Yeah, I'm going to loss like.

Jason

So there's a lot of departments right now that are that since PTSD became presumptive, there's a lot of departments that are struggling, as is our smaller department with guys raising their hand and saying I have this issue and they deserve to be off and figure out what's going on and and get themselves back into the right place because of that.

Chelsi

It's a it's a.

Jason

Sacrifice they made for. They're citizens, right for their job, and then the other side of the coin is people who then either abuse that or the guys at the Firehouse who are left holding the bag saying OK, how bad is this for you, man? Because I'm left picking all this stuff up. And are you just doing this to get some time off? And that's where this whole struggle comes in between. Do you call in sick? How sick are you? Because it's. I can't think of the term where you have it's you have somebody has to cover the shift. It's not like almost any other career when somebody calls in sick, everybody else can pick up the slack. Somebody has to be there and and get the man out, right, which is the. Bottom line of what we're talking about.

Chelsi

I'm going to I'm going to tell a personal story that's actually like immediately right now. So my husband is on stress leave right now and.

Audra

He needs to.

Chelsi

Be on it. We went to go get some of. His things from the. Firehouse over the weekend and we had the guy. Come up and be like, how serious is this because you don't. Look sick and. I'm sorry, but if you're the guy asking that question, that's totally not OK because you have no idea what people are actually going through like. None at all. They could look perfectly put together, have it all. Together at the. Firehouse and be falling apart at home. And in my personal experience, that's.

Speaker

Not a good place.

Chelsi

To be so when? I say like. If you're having the stress go take care of yourself. I literally had to tell my husband. Like, you're either going to take a stress leave and take care of this stuff, or I'm going to have to think about not being. Here because I. Can't this is crazy? And that's unfortunate that we had to get to that place 15 years into it, but that's. Where we are. So just don't. Don't be that guy like.

Peter

I think the. I I I. Appreciate you sharing that because that adds nuance to the conversation. I think there's a difference in people it and this goes down to personal what you're comfortable doing or not doing I would. I don't want to, say, argue, but the counterpoint is there's probably a lot of guys in the station that should be raising their hand and saying I need stress. But we're exasperating it it, and I'm. I don't want to assume that anybody would fake this, right, because that's not the type of people we are. But if somebody did do that, that would just be making it that much harder on everybody else. And arguably there's people in the station who should be going on stress leaves, but they aren't. So if everybody. Did it which? I would like to say would be a great. Yeah, the fire department would fall apart like it would cease to exist, right? It would be a big problem, but that this issue. Is so complex. And so connected and so many people are affected by all of this, it's. Just I don't. Know there is no like easy solution or. God, this is. If we just did 123 everything. Would be great it it we had already done it. By now, if that was the case.

Chelsi

Right. I think that Audrey made a really valid point when she said mandatory debriefings. I I think it's not a mandatory debriefing because you can't force anybody to talk about. Their feelings or the call that they just went on, or what they're thinking, but what I do think is that. When you sit. In the room with your peers and you. Hear a story that somebody tells. And they are open, honest and communicative. It changes the way you think about what just happened to you, and if we just held mandatory debriefings after tough calls or at least peer support meetings or something. Things would start to get a little bit better and people that really needed help might feel that it's OK to ask for. It and it's the people. That say you don't look that sick or you seem fine. What are you doing to me? Because I want to be off tomorrow. That's the cog in the wheel, right?

Jason

Thank you for saying that. Yeah, I I totally, totally agree with what you've been saying. I, I Peters heard me say this before, but as a captain of my station, I use this excuse when we go on a really bad call or when I could use the peer support team. Help I tell my guys this is happening because we need to flex that muscle for the peer support team. It's for those guys. It's not for us, it's for the peer support team to come. Have some practice and then.

Speaker 5

That's smart.

Jason

Nobody has to talk, right? You. You get fed or whatever you get to not run calls for an hour or two. Everybody sits around, nobody has to talk. And you know what happens. Every single person ends up sharing and I get so upset with the other captains who go, my crew said they were good, so we're not going to talk. My crew said they were good, so we're not gonna have peer support comment and and I'm trying to get rid of some. Of that culture as well, so find an excuse.

Chelsi

Right. So one of the things that. My husband does, if they're all out in the brush, fire or whatever. For a long time, as he's like, all right, we're going to, we're going to go out and we're going to, like, take our shoes off and the guys are like what, we're take our boots off what? Are you talking about going to find a Creek and we're going to put our feet in the Creek and we're just going to chill and then he, like, starts talking about whatever affected him, and then it's a. Domino effect. Everybody starts talking about what's affecting them and it's really. I think it's leadership leadership has to be doing the things like you said, like you make an excuse and if we were just doing that consistently and. That's what we. Love about Ashley Iverson? But she was.

Jason

From the top.

Chelsi

Really. The one? Yeah, that's what. We love about her because she was the one that was like, why are we not having this conversation sitting around the Firehouse table? And let's make it a safe space. Yeah, that's really what it's about. And thank you for doing that for your people because that's.

Jason

Yeah. And and. I want to circle back to you to when we were talking about continue to talk to your wife about how much your family can take, and then the wives need to be honest. Because when you're a new wife, I think it's preached to you that you need to be supportive of your husband, who's the Super super alpha. Firefighter guy and when he says. He's got to work 15 shifts extra a month. You go. Yes, honey. Let me rub your feet. For you, right, the wife needs to be more honest and raise her hand and go. That's too much. I need to say, hey, let's cap. It at X amount of.

Chelsi

Shifts. Hi. I might be the problem.

Peter

Fire away. Fire away, ladies firewood.

Chelsi

I I might be the problem because I never ever said go ahead and work 15 extra shifts and.

Speaker 5

Leaders like let's watch this.

Chelsi

Let me rub your feet.

Jason

I'm glad I I wish more I. Wish more women. Would just be honest. And say this is the cap for our family and this is, you know, it's a respect both ways issue, but if you get married with that, I'm with a firefighter now. So my life is going to. Be great and. Easy and there's going to be fireworks all the time in our backyard. That's such a A.

Audra

Oh my God.

Jason

Hard way to start and it's it's. Just not going to end up that way, so. Whatever it turns into shouldn't be a surprise.

Chelsi

Enter Dear Chiefs podcast because we keep it. Real like, honestly.

Speaker 6

Yeah, I love it.

Peter

Jason, I'll disagree with you a little bit on that one. So if I'm hearing you correctly, you're almost like assigning some blame to the spouse for not like saying this is enough. This is too much for me. And I would call I I. I think it probably needs to come from both of you guys. And it can't like no.

Speaker

Whoa, whoa, whoa, boy.

Chelsi

Stop. I'm going to put you in corners now.

Jason

Hey, I'm.

Speaker

No, no. What I'm saying is.

Peter

Gonna mute cause Chelsea's got.

Jason

My back now, so we're good.

Peter

What I'm saying is because the firefighters here, there is no like, I'm here doing this great thing for the community. So you have to tell me when too much is too much for you. What I'm. Thing is, it's on both of them like they should both say it should be a conversation. It shouldn't be like this. The firefighter man or woman has this, like, lofty position, and they're doing these like sacrificial things for the community, and the spouse has to just suck it up and take it and then just tell me when it's too much. Like, that's all I'm saying. That's kind of nonsense. In my mind. Like it, they should both be like. Be able to read the room and go. OK, this is too much. I see that. Or the spouse. Vice versa.

Speaker 5

I think it's hard for a.

Audra

New wife. Because I mean like. Like you guys said, when you initially when you signed up for this, you were not getting these crazy mandos, right? So I don't I I don't think firefighters. No. When they well now they probably know. That's probably why they're not applying because they don't work mandos. But I think about it. But I don't think that you really know what your schedule is going to be like and you don't realize like oh I'm. Going to work these ten days, I didn't really know. My wife had a choice. So the wife is at home thinking. Alright, well, he has to do this for 10 days. I don't really get to say no. That's too much. Oh, my God, I'm losing my mind. You know, you just go with it until you're so ****** *** and resentful, and then you're like, wait, why are you mad? You know? And and it's it's like you said, like, you have to communicate.

Chelsi

I think.

Peter

I think we're talking. About extra days, not like the bare minimum.

Speaker

I right well.

Chelsi

I also think that that's making an assumption and. And I don't think that the firefighter should assume that their wife is having a problem or not having a problem. I think that we should be talking to each. Yeah. Hi. What did I tell you? I'm the problem. It's me.

Speaker 6

What? Really.

Audra

Do you? I mean assumption is.

Speaker 5

Is the root of all evil.

Jason

You shouldn't expect. You shouldn't expect to know what the other person's thinking or like. If I think 8 over times. Good. And she thinks 2 is good. We need to have a conversation and figure out because I maybe her thoughts and my thoughts for what are best for the family are totally different and doesn't mean one of us is wrong. It means you. Respect each other.

Speaker 6

And figure out where.

Peter

No, what I'm saying.

Chelsi

That it's not, it's not. Push it through.

Peter

Is you should be able to see if there's a. You should be able to identify if there's a problem. In your relationship I mean.

Chelsi

But how?

Peter

If somebody is unhappy if the relationship's not working, if their issues come up like you don't think like that's only.

Speaker

But but no, it's.

Peter

One person's job is. That what you're saying?

Chelsi

Not I'm. I'm saying that it's a team effort and right 100%.

Peter

That's exactly what I'm saying too.

Audra

All right, you 2GO.

Speaker

But we don't.

Audra

To your corners, but.

Chelsi

I also think that you can. Can't tell necessarily that there's issues at home when you're not at home and the person who's at home can't tell if there's. If you're at work because they're not at work with you. So it goes back to we have to be talking about. It all the time. And not assume. Seen that because you had a bad call, you're going to have PTSD response or that because I had a bad day at home. I need you to not take over time like those. That's what I'm talking. About where we can't assume.

Peter

Ohh so I would agree with you. I would agree with you on. That, but I guess what I. Was trying to communicate. Poorly is that if I have if I'm in a relationship with my wife. I feel like. I should be in tune if there's an issue. Between us, that's what.

Audra

Are you a mind reader, Peter?

Peter

I'm talking about. I'm not saying.

Chelsi

Yeah, right. Are you, are you clairvoyant?

Speaker 6

I feel like there's some some couples therapy versus not here, if that.

Jason

Is happening.

Peter

I I I know if my wife's mad at me or she's.

Audra

Well, yeah, for sure for sure.

Peter

Having a problem, yeah.

Speaker

Well, yeah.

Chelsi

But I mean, how many times in a week is too many times for her to be mad? At you like that's that's my question. Like, that's why I said how?

Peter

That's that's impossible. To answer for me anyway, maybe you can. I don't know.

Jason

That's what she's saying I think is is you gotta communicate with your boundaries.

Peter

All I'm saying is. If you're in a relationship that you that you have with your spouse, either or should know if there's. A problem going on.

Chelsi

And we're going. To have to agree, if you agree.

Peter

In the in the in the relationship. I'm not saying like I'm having a problem at work. She needs to know about it or she's having a problem with some other aspect of her life at home that I don't see. I'm saying like, if our. If there's a problem in our. Ship. I feel like that would. Yeah. Like it's like the.

Audra

You should it.

Peter

Balance is going to be off, right?

Audra

Yeah. You feel the vibes. The vibes are. Off. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that makes sense.

Peter

That's what I'm saying.

Chelsi

I don't believe I don't believe in vibes, so I I I again have to agree to disagree. Like, I feel like if you're communicating all the time about all.

Peter

OK, alright. Do you know anybody who can? Do you know who? Any relationship?

Chelsi

The things.

Peter

Who communicates all the? Time about.

Chelsi

Ohh, Audra and. I communicate all the time with our firefighters like there's.

Audra

Let me just. Tell you though, I mean there will be plenty. Of times when, like Damien will walk in. To be like. Whoa. Why? Why is everybody's on fire right now? Like everybody's ****** *** at everybody in. The house and I. Mean. Yeah. We communicate as much as possible, but there's definitely times like I know what you're I get what you're saying, Peter. When it's like he walks in. And is like. What happened? Why is everybody upset or like? Oh, I can tell Mom's. Really mad about something. It's like stuff like that where it's just like I haven't had a chance to talk. To him about it or. I mean sometimes.

Chelsi

But we're also really good about taking the walk after they get home and being like, OK, let me download what just happened like, so. I feel like it's it. Yeah.

Speaker 5

But there's also been plenty of times where, like.

Peter

Nobody's no relationship is perfect. Doing all the things.

Audra

No. Oh, my God. No. I mean, there's been plenty of. There's still plenty of times in our relationship when he calls and he's like, what's wrong? I'm like nothing.

Jason

That's all I'm saying.

Audra

And I'm like, I don't want to talk about it right now. And then he's like, oh crap.

Chelsi

But I think the point was like. Getting back to the point that.

Audra

You were trying.

Chelsi

To make like, don't assume.

Peter

No, we I I would agree with you assuming.

Chelsi

Right. Like don't assume you know.

Peter

It's bad, right? Right. This has been awesome. This is a good conversation. I'm glad we're having this conversation.

Jason

I think that next time it needs to be Peter. And my wife with you too.

Audra

Oh my God. We would have so much fun.

Jason

Our wives altogether. Type. Yeah, right. That's what I. That's what I'm very happy to that point. That's gonna.

Audra

We'll just pin. You both in the corners and.

Jason

Ohh no. Yeah. And we're not going to be here, Peter and I. Will be far away.

Audra

Oh no, you have to be here. No, no, you're you're, you're going to be. You're going to. You guys are going to.

Chelsi

It's like.

Audra

Be sharing the screen together OK?

Chelsi

It's gonna. It's gonna it's like. Who would win the battle? The fire wives or the firefighters?

Peter

Ohh, I already know the. Oh my God, I think.

Chelsi

Would win the.

Peter

And their wives?

Speaker 6

All four of us would agree on that. Yep.

Audra

So you guys are, I'm going to flip the script script on you for a minute. You I want to because I want to know. So you guys are a smaller department, right?

Jason

Yes, six sessions. Ohh.

Audra

You're OK? Well, that's not my.

Peter

It's relative, it's relative. It depends. On the context, right? Yeah.

Audra

Yeah, no, six is big. My husband's is 3, typically 2IN city. And then one day do mutual. Yeah, but in Socal 6 is small. Yeah. So yeah, in your small departments, do your do the spouses like communicate? Do you guys do stuff at the stations, like, bring them together to hang? Out and meet each.

Peter

It's a struggle. We do have a a spouses Hillary and and then the foundation gets involved and we're trying to promote more of this for sure. So there is some stuff, but not enough.

Audra

And when did you start that? I'm just curious.

Chelsi

I want to know who heads it up first. Like who? Who's?

Speaker 5

OK.

Peter

Jason's wife, Jason's wife, is one of the ones.

Jason

One of our board members is actually leads the Women's auxiliary from the Foundation Board and then her committee is made-up of auxiliary members, and they're tasked usually with. Having functions or getting together with families, whether that's, you know, a day at the beach or getting together to go do a do a family. Day at the park or. Or go to a Dodger game down here or whatever. Whatever we're going to do as.

Speaker 6

A group is usually.

Jason

What they head up and then on time to time, they'll also have just a wives day.

Speaker 6

Where they'll go.

Jason

Go get wine or go get a massage or whatever. Whatever they're gonna do. To kind of get away. Too. It's really hard as you guys know when. 1/3 we'll pretend it's only 1/3 of the department is on duty at a time, so then it you have babysitting issues and kid issues and all the stuff you guys. Run into as well.

Chelsi

So you feel like it's they're like not showing up for it is that?

Peter

Oh, it it. We struggle. We struggle to get.

Jason

Yeah, it's busy, right? Everybody's.

Peter

By it for sure.

Jason

Busy and and when you are just putting more stuff on the calendar. Sure. That's tough. It's tough to say. As a family we have stuff going on all the time and you want me to add to my calendar, even though it's for me and for community, you know it's it's tough, especially when we when we work as much as we do and they feel like they're alone and that could be time together. Instead, so yeah.

Chelsi

So may I make a suggestion and you could take it back to your board. And your wives? Do you guys have designated family days at your stations? May I suggest you start it.

Peter

Tell us more. What's that look like? How? How do you how?

Chelsi

So designated Family Day for us. Used to be before the pandemic was like Saturday and Sunday were designated Family Day and families would come and we'd all cook dinner together. You know, the kids would play and then all the firefighters and the wives could be at the Firehouse or, you know, you're on duty. But you're, you know, together. And it could be once a month it could be every weekend. It could be once a quarter, whatever, but then at least everybody's together, you know. Just a suggestion. Yeah, great.

Peter

I like.

Jason

That I like it. We do that for holidays for sure. Right. We have families over. If we did that more the the the issue is that in my opinion. The issue is. That we are so. That we either wouldn't be there and it could be seen as a downer because we're gone the whole time that our family drove out at the station.

Chelsi

But that's OK. OK, that's fine.

Jason

That's probably to see that. I see that and then the other issue is when do we find a day that's not? Full so it would have to. Be probably because we have one day a week that. We don't have stuff scheduled, right? So. Would have to be that one day. Yeah, I mean, I I don't mean to try to say no, but I I do think yes, definitely.

Speaker

Well, you could do it.

Chelsi

Station to station. Too, right?

Audra

Do you mean you're can be stationed?

Jason

It would. It would definitely be.

Audra

So you have stuff scheduled every day. So are you doing like pub bed? And training every single day.

Peter

Our schedule is, well, not mine anymore, but they they fill the schedule up between training and pub beds.

Audra

That's. I'm sorry. Wife opinion. That's ridiculous. And I'm.

Speaker

And stuff like.

Speaker 6

That very fun.

Jason

So I'd like you to write yes.

Speaker 5

The chief chief, that one ridiculous chief. The lives are passed.

Speaker

You write.

Audra

I think that it it. Honestly, it is so important for. Departments to have downtime. You should not be after running calls all day long. Training pub Ed. All this stuff. You should have downtime every day or one day, two days when you're not doing anything because that right there. That's going to. Lead to more mental health problems, more exhaustion.

Jason

Yes, 100%.

Audra

More. Yeah, just. That's too much, and especially with the call volumes, because we all know. They've increased over the last. Three years. It's not necessary. I mean, I'm. I am a huge proponent of training. I am not saying don't train no 100%. You need to do training and yes, pub bed. Absolutely. But there's no reason to pack a schedule like that. Oh my gosh. Come on.

Peter

You're singing to the.

Audra

Yeah, I know.

Peter

Choir. Do you guys have?

Chelsi

Designated like downtime though, like every. Day. Whoa.

Audra

What the like like what do you?

Peter

Mean. Well, hold on. Hold on, hold on. Make make.

Speaker 5

So you have you have a PT hour, right?

Peter

Sure, we're talking about.

Chelsi

Syncing. So is there soft time?

Peter

After 5:00. 5:00 after 5:00, it's your. It's your time just to do whatever minus the cost. So after is.

Speaker

This is this afternoon.

Audra

Right. But yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So from 8:00 to 5:00, you're on right in the traditional sense. And then you have your, you have your one hour of PT in.

Peter

That what you're talking? About are you talking about something else? OK. Yes, yes, yeah. Yeah. Then after 5.

Audra

There somewhere too.

Peter

Yeah. In the morning, yeah.

Speaker 6

Yeah, it's probably.

Jason

What the same as what you're talking about, we well and the hour of PT is is maybe half the time we we get to do that because there's other stuff going on. And then you after 5:00, they don't have anything.

Audra

Planned schedule.

Jason

For the most part, for the most part, they don't have anything.

Audra

But you're still running.

Chelsi

Goals. OK, so that's. What I mean like have have dinner 5. O'clock six o'clock 7:00, whatever works for the Firehouse. Have it.

Jason

No, I think you're on to something there. I I'll. I'll have to give it some thought, but I really like that designated family days. We do have some of that. The the other problem is that as guys get older and their families aren't there anymore.

Chelsi

Once a month.

Jason

I feel like nobody thinks of the guys who still do have families and want to come to the station. So you have a captain who doesn't matter to them anymore, and then you have the firefighter who's 33 and has two little kids like you have to.

Chelsi

Oh, I did, yeah.

Jason

Think of those.

Audra

That part is really hard.

Chelsi

Penalties. Yeah, so that's mandatory. Designated mandatory designated family days come into play because.

Jason

Man, no Family Day staff.

Chelsi

Mando family days? Well, I mean, everything else is. Mandated. So why?

Peter

Not so. I see problems here in the guys from the previous generation who like you said, Jason, don't have kids. They're gonna like.

Audra

Resist. Here's the thing, and I will tell you first hand experience, no first hand experience.

Chelsi

From the chief if they can't.

Audra

There have been times when. I'm not going to throw anybody under the bus, but there have been times when we have gone to family days, quote UN quote and some firefighters choose not to participate and just stay in the rooms. We don't care if that's how you want to do it. That's totally fine. Your family doesn't have to come. You don't have to participate, but don't ruin it for.

Jason

Yeah. Yes, I like mine.

Audra

Everybody else, Chelsea.

Speaker

Well, that and if.

Peter

You had something then I want to talk about. To bring up. Another subject afternoon.

Chelsi

Well, yeah, and like you. Don't have to participate, but also like sometimes if it is a designated Family Day and they see other families coming, they actually get really like excited for the next one, which is really interesting. So yeah.

Peter

I think it's a great idea.

Speaker 6

To your.

Jason

Point. That's like, that's like pub beds too, where? Guys, poo poo them and then they get there and they're with the little kids and it ends up. Being a fun time and they were all.

Speaker

Glad they did.

Peter

Yeah. So I want to change topics a little bit. So one, our foundation, the Ventura Fire Foundation is here to support the firefighters and their families. And our assessment is that we need to dedicate more time to the families. Spouses, kids, all of those players. On this, what are what? It's difficult to go. We're going to do XY and Z and that's going to make a big difference. And that's just how we're going to do it. It's it's really hard to do that. So I'm looking for your opinion on what are things that an organization, not the fire department, but our nonprofit. To do to support the families like tactical things, not like concepts and, you know, ambiguous things. But like, what if somebody said, hey, I'm going to do this. What's would what would that be? What would be helpful from your perspective?

Chelsi

Well, Audrey and I did it. We started. A podcast I don't know.

Peter

OK, OK. Fair enough. I think it's absolutely helpful and we we dedicate. A lot of shows to it as well.

Chelsi

I don't know. I think that designated family. Day would be really great.

Peter

I think that I personally think it's a great idea.

Audra

What do you guys do? Right now so.

Peter

Like we've had mandos come and do a seminar for the spouses. We've done that. We've had Ashley Iverson come up and say your name last name. OK, yeah, she's come up.

Chelsi

Yes, yes.

Peter

Once or twice I can't remember and done her thing up here. We've had. We have another one coming up for couples. So we've done those types of things. But those those. Are helpful and. I don't discount them. I think they're great we. Get great feedback from. Them, but I'm looking for something that we could make your life at home a little bit better by doing this and I and we've. We've pulled wives and talked, and sometimes a lot of it. The conversation starts to revolve around like time for self-care. So give me a break babysitting options like that comes up fairly frequently, but that's complex too, cause we're talking about giving your kids to someone else. You may or may not know. There's things like the the spouse is never home, so come fix things that's come up as well. So just curious from your perspective cause you guys have a unique perspective because you've had this conversation on your podcast with professionals over and over and over again and. I think you would have a a. Maybe a easier time answering the question or not I.

Audra

As we don't.

Peter

Know but.

Speaker 5

You're like. I think I.

Chelsi

Think the prioritizing self-care kind of. I get like the daycare issues. So what if what if you had a day when you guys? I don't know if you can do this legally or if but it would look like liability insurance but what if you sponsored a day for kids? And moms and dads could come, and the kids could have an activity to do and they could have time to themselves.

Peter

Like, drop the kids off for this amount of time and you guys bounce.

Chelsi

Or they're still on site and there's an organized activity of some kind for the the adults. And the children separately. Yeah. Bringing a clown like with Ashley Iverson? Yeah. So, two activities simultaneously happening. So parents are still on site.

Speaker 6

So providing.

Speaker

I like that.

Peter

Those are like event type things and some of the feedback we get is I don't. I'm not going to add another thing to our calendar, it's already jam packed with sports and kids and this and that. I think in my mind like something in the House that would be helpful, but I don't. Know what it is.

Chelsi

I love my robot back. There you guys. Can just buy everybody a robot vacuum.

Jason

That that provides you more time, right?

Speaker 5

Hey, yeah.

Peter

Providing A housekeeper is. One of the things we've talked.

Speaker

About yeah.

Audra

They have a housekeeper. I fully support that, OK?

Speaker

Yeah. So I. Yeah, I don't.

Chelsi

Know about providing the house? Yeah. Housekeeper.

Speaker 6

We'll get that George Jetson made for everybody.

Audra

Oh my God, Rosie.

Chelsi

Yeah, I tell you what, Rosie, I.

Audra

That would be amazing.

Chelsi

I yeah, we love. Yes, we love Rosie. But I also love my little. Vacuum over here. I call him Alfred.

Peter

And my house is named Henry so.

Audra

I mean. That's such a hard question because it's going to be so dependent on what? Yeah, exactly.

Peter

Different for everybody, yeah.

Chelsi

So maybe you giving them give. Them a spending limit and they go spend it. On whatever they want that they think. Would be helpful for them.

Speaker 6

I like that. Give them, give them some total freedom.

Peter

Yeah, but they but they have, but they have. To spend it on themselves and they.

Chelsi

Yeah, they can't buy uniforms.

Peter

Can't like. Add it to the college tuition fund or something, yeah.

Chelsi

Well, I mean that could be helpful for.

Audra

Somebody too, yeah.

Chelsi

I mean, Audra. And I both have kids that are in college helping me with my insurance, my college bills.

Audra

So expensive. Every scholarship runs man on my computer right now I'm like.

Chelsi

Might be good. You know, I think that. Yeah. I mean, I think. That you you know if you want. Something tangible give. Them give them a catalog. Of things they can choose from.

Audra

Give them their firefighter back for a day. God.

Peter

Yeah, that would. Yeah, we're going to give you your firefighter back with no overtime for two. Months that would be wildly famous. Oh my God.

Speaker 6

Number one right, number one we we hear.

Peter

Virtually impossible for our. Foundation to do, but I agree with you it would.

Audra

Yeah. Yeah, let's.

Speaker 6

Be good here and say it over and over. Work less. Figure out a way to work less.

Peter

Alright, we can move on. I don't. I don't want to stagnate on that. I was just. Didn't know if you had. Anything top of mind that was going to be, you know, revolutionary for. A for a conversation.

Speaker 6

But if if it.

Peter

Was easy. We would have already done it. It's a tough thing to ask and it's so personal and. Everyone's different and and.

Audra

But if you prioritize and put something. The budget that you know your spouse really needs every month, I think it's a huge help because they have something to look forward to.

Chelsi

Yeah, housekeeping is I mean, but then I'm I'm like anti housekeeper so. Some people are. I have money back. I don't want weird. I don't want people I. Don't know. In my house. I'm just like that.

Audra

Oh my God, I I trust my housekeeper with my life now. And she's, you know, I love her it up because she does stuff that I don't have time to do and and frankly, my husband does not want to do it when he comes home from cleaning toilets all the time. It's station so. Although he doesn't think about it much anymore because he's, you know, old. Yeah, he's the captain now. He just. Stands over the person cleaning the toilet. Make sure he's done doing it right. Just kidding. Honey, we love you, Damian.

Speaker

Love you.

Audra

Oh, no, he still picks. Up the vacuum. He he doesn't. Like to sit still though. Yeah, anyways.

Peter

Well, this has been a great conversation. Anything material to the conversation that you'd want us want to talk about that we haven't? Had a chance to don't.

Audra

Work so much, I think if there's like one thing I would say is it sounds like you guys already. Have pretty good peer support. And don't force the firefighters to go to the briefings, but do like, Jason. It starts at the top, and if the leadership does not support it, nobody else is going to support it. So take care of.

Chelsi

I'm going to piggyback off of that and say if there is. An incident, please invite the families to a debriefing.

Jason

I like that. Yeah, that's something that we don't do and and we can definitely improve on.

Audra

We were on some, I guess podcast a couple weeks ago and they sent us a one page sheet that they actually sent home to the spouses after a serious call. That tells them what to expect, like what to look for, what you know what so.

Speaker

Ohh wow.

Audra

And you firefighters are exhibiting at home so that the spouse kind of knows. What is going on like in your mind? What you could be thinking what could be happening like signs of trauma, those kinds of things? I thought that was. Fascinating. I've never seen anything like that.

Chelsi

But I think that that assumes that the family has been invited. To the debriefing because.

Audra

No, and. And they had it.

Chelsi

I have never seen. One of those come I have never. Seen one of. Those come home.

Audra

And in fact, yeah. In fact, I think I.

Chelsi

And my husband's been to many. With that company.

Audra

I asked. If they had ever invited the family and I think he said no, it's really good information nonetheless so.

Chelsi

Oh, it's great information, but I'm like, how does it get? How do we guarantee?

Audra

Well, you have to teach them.

Chelsi

It gets home to, yeah, yeah.

Audra

How to use it?

Chelsi

Yeah, yeah. And how does it get home to the family?

Peter

We need to have them first. I think we're pretty weak on the. Debriefing thing, I think I'm not saying that.

Chelsi

You should have them for every. Call. Yeah, a major incident.

Audra

The big ones? The big ones? Yeah, yeah.

Peter

I know exactly what you're saying. I just don't think that that's a strength that. Our department has.

Audra

I don't think it's a strength that any department has honestly think it's something that's going to be like you said, Peter, a little like it'll be trending toward that way. But I mean, a lot of departments still. Don't even have a peer support team. So I think it, you know, if we could tell.

Speaker

Yeah, yeah.

Audra

You one thing it. Would be get a peer support team.

Chelsi

Or get somebody that. Knows how to. Build one, yeah. That's why you need. To have James Boomhauer on the podcast.

Audra

Get the cortico op.

Peter

What is he? What's his background? What does he? Talk about.

Chelsi

So he actually talks about peer support. He can help you build a peer support team. He has been the peer support coordinator for Boston. Four years.

Speaker

Just got his PhD.

Chelsi

And he's fricking.

Speaker

Right.

Chelsi

He just got. His PhD. No therapist, master. Yeah, yeah.

Audra

Yeah, he's brilliant.

Peter

Gotcha. Gotcha.

Chelsi

And he's culturally competent. Yeah, he works as a flight medic or flight medic. Yeah.

Peter

We I feel like we are. We do I. Feel like we're. Pretty good on the peer support thing. We have a pretty robust team and. But yeah, I'd love to talk to him. Love to have him. Where can our listeners find you guys? And we have the Dear Chiefs podcast. I would love for them to start listening. What? How? What's the best way? If they want to get involved, to reach out, how do you suggest someone does that?

Audra

That's great.

Chelsi

Yeah, we have Instagram. You can find us at. Your chiefs. We also have a website. It's just yourchiefs.com. And we're on TikTok, but I don't. Know our handle.

Audra

I don't know. It either. Wait, hold on. I think it's. Dear chiefs.

Chelsi

Scared Cheese Podcast when I have no.

Audra

I mean, honestly, the TikTok is basically it's Tier 2 podcasts. Yeah, it's the, you know, it's all the same stuff that you see on on Instagram just to get a wider audience, but which?

Jason

Depending on how old you are as which. Platform you use.

Audra

Ohh I I really hate pick talk. Anybody.

Chelsi

We're also on Facebook for that's 90.

Audra

You can always e-mail us too, OK? Hello at dearchiefs.com.

Peter

Gotcha. Jason, any anything you? Want to touch on before we wrap this up?

Jason

No. When we're done with the show, I'm definitely gonna ask you guys to e-mail us that peer support sheet for the spouses afterwards. I think that I'm going to send that to our peer support group and then maybe they can do something with. That as far as implementing it at home and that. At least the home family members still feel included, and it's I think it's also a great way for the department or the peer support team to know if somebody acts like everything's OK at work and they're not doing OK at home, it's just another facet, a way that they could intervene when that's necessary. So I appreciate you guys. Coming on a ton. It's really good to get that other perspective here. I have a feeling we'll be talking to you guys again and you know collaborating. And if we can get Peter, my wife in the room with you guys, I think you would all be very close to on the same page. And I think that would be a good thing too. So thank you.

Speaker

Yeah, yeah.

Jason

Guys for being here I.

Peter

Really do appreciate your time. Yeah. I I want to say I appreciate the banter and. That we didn't all just agree on everything cuz I would been. Really boring. So right.

Audra

Never boring.

Peter

For appreciate your guys's perspective, yeah. All right, thanks for coming. On the show, go listen to their podcast and yeah, thanks for. Listening to this episode.

Chelsi

For having us, thanks for having us.

Peter

All right, Jason, that was a great episode, very. Colorful conversation we had with Audra and Chelsea.

Jason

Yeah, that was definitely a fun 1:00 we we had some good banter with them and it it kind of felt like having discussions with with some of the wives that I've that I've seen around when we when we have events with the fire department it was. You know, it turned into more of a conversation just with some of those experienced firefighter wives, and I talked about that in the episode too, to when you're going to marry a firefighter. You should really get. With an experienced wife who's gone through a lot of that too, one of the things I took away was I'm definitely going to. I know I kind of balked that a little bit on the episode, but I'm definitely going to try to plan out some family days at the stations. And I think the key that she talked about was when she said, plan them out beforehand and have those dates on the calendar and, you know, get get that time. Get that? No one.

Peter

Yeah, I I think I thought that was. A great idea for. Sure. We didn't always agree on the issues, which was good. We definitely discussed some in detail. But yeah, I think I love what they're doing. The fact that they're trying to create this community of fire wives and and educate them on what they're getting into. And how they can cope with the issues. And I like what they're doing.

Jason

Yeah. And the fact that they can raise their hand and say we're. The hot. Mess express I. Don't know if. They coined that term, but man.

Speaker 6

I like it. That's perfect.

Peter

Yeah. Yeah. All right. Well, if you like this episode, guys, please share it. We are trying to get the word out for the the work that the foundation is doing and the what we're doing with the podcast. Give us a review, send it to a friends, other firefighters, spouses, kids, all of the above. So that would be helpful for us.

Jason

Yeah, follow like and share. Dear Chief, much has happened. That was a great.

Speaker 6

Line have a good week, Pete.

Jason

You too.